Designated Yost Thread... Latest: No accountability and lack of urgency (part 2)

[naivin]

I'm sorry, but in no way can you start comparing Yost to Leyland or Cox. When Yost has some serious success, then he might get a free pass for a season or two. But he hasn't had that success yet.

 

I'm not comparing them, and if any of those guys wanted to trade places with Ned, I'd welcome them with open arms. I am simply pointing out the rather meaningless value of record in last 162 games. Those records are far maore a function of the talent (or lack there of) on the teams, injuries, and the performance of individual players, then anything Cox or Leyland did. Same goes for Yost. Raise your hand if you think the Brewers had a appreciably better looking roster than any of the teams above (except SF) over the last 162 games. For every Ryan Braun and Prince Fielder there is a Chipper Jones, Maglio Ordonez, Joe Mauer, Torii Hunter, etc.

[1992casey]

On the radio the other day, they made a point to mention that in their entire history, the Brewers have only had a grand total of one manager with previous MLB managerial experience.

It depends on how you want to factor in the technicalities. The Brewers have had:

• Dave Bristol (previously managed Reds, but hired by Pilots in the offseason before the team came to Milwaukee)
• Rene Lachemann (previously managed Mariners)
• George Bamberger / 2nd tenure (previously managed Brewers and Mets)
• Jim Lefebvre / interim manager (previously managed Mariners and Cubs)

The radio guy was probably referring to Lachemann, but I think it would have been remiss not to at least include Bamberger.

[naivin]

Ned Yost is 77-85 in his last 162 games. I'm predicting his Brewer tenure will be over Friday morning.

 

Ain't gonna happen. Melvin and Nedly got all the cover they need if this team doesn't meet expectations when Gallardo went down with a season ending injury. I can hear it now, "the team simply failed to meet expectations due to injuries. If we had only had Yo for the whole year we would have made the playoffs" It's not like they haven't used it before.....

Based on where I think this team will likely finish, I think it will be legitimate. Yo is a massive blow, and I think some are failing to fully recognize that - either that or those who have decided Yost has to go aren't willing to admit that injuries are a factor. Even with teh injury though, I still expect the Brewers to be in reasonable striking distance into September, and I do believe the drop off from Gallardo to Bush/Weaver/whomever is dramatic enough to account for the difference between making it and not naking it. There is pretty much nothing Ned can do about that.

 

Since when does Doug Melvin seek cover where Ned Yost is concerned? Because he didn't blame Ned for Sheets inability to make it through a season, or the fact that he gave him a roster full of players that couldn't play defense, or a bullpen filled with unreliable pitchers? If Doug wanted cover, you would not have seen the many changes we saw this off-season...new CF and a new catcher, Braun to LF, Hall back to the IF, a whole new bullpen, DM is a guy who does his best to correct mistakes and improve the team, not pretend they don't exist. Nearly everything above were moves to correct or improve on previous moves he made. Far from seeking cover.

[naivin]

One other quick thing on Ned...Guys like John Scuerhol, Bobby Cox, and Doug Melvin have kept him employed for the better part of 18 years I believe. I'm not sure about you, but I think those guys might have some idea what they're doing. Given that he is in his 6th season, if you have a problem with Ned, isn't your problem really with Doug Melvin?

[sheethead]

Every team deals with injuries. Its just the Brewers and Ned Yost don't deal with them very well... mainly by losing a lot of games and then pointing to the injuries. The loss of Yo should not derail expectations IMO, but I see it has.

[kiwi brewer]

agreed. can't point to injuries as an excuse if you are hitting sub .250 as a team. that would be pretty weak.

[jazzytrav]

Based on where I think this team will likely finish, I think it will be legitimate. Yo is a massive blow, and I think some are failing to fully recognize that - either that or those who have decided Yost has to go aren't willing to admit that injuries are a factor.

I think it was Rluzinski that showed that Yo's injury would be the difference of about 3(?) wins. Something close to that anyways. I suppose in a tight race that could make a signficant difference, but I wouldn't call it a massive blow.

 

One other quick thing on Ned...Guys like John Scuerhol, Bobby Cox, and Doug Melvin have kept him employed for the better part of 18 years I believe. I'm not sure about you, but I think those guys might have some idea what they're doing.

Bobby Cox employed him as a bench coach, and considering how much fire he had when he came here, I don't doubt that he was a pretty good bench coach. But that's not a manager. And I can't say that I fully trust Melvin's decisions. Does he have some sort of past success in choosing managers?

[tristarscoop]

You have a valid point and it's something I've struggled with in terms of my Yost hatred because other than keeping Yost around, I really like the things Melvin has done for this club. His other moves and hires have been grade-A IMO and therefore I wonder if I'm missing something with Ned.

[tigerbrew]

Ned said recently when Turnbow was DFA that major league baseball is a performance based business. Despite the huge increases in Brewers player payroll, Ned's track record is still poor, the team continues to flounder and playoffs expectation has become a pipe dream. The team manager has to be responsible and accountable for the team's results. If he can't get the results expected of him, he has to go.

xisxisxis wrote:

---

Ain't gonna happen. Melvin and Nedly got all the cover they need if this team doesn't meet expectations when Gallardo went down with a season ending injury. I can hear it now, "the team simply failed to meet expectations due to injuries. If we had only had Yo for the whole year we would have made the playoffs" It's not like they haven't used it before.....

Excuses, excuses, it's getting tiresome to hear. If the lost of Yo is that massive, then why bother playing any further, they might as well fold up for the season. At least that will save many fans from spending their hard-earned money and precious time watching the team suck. There's still so many games left to do something and fight for a playoff spot, think I will be sick if DM or Yost use Yo's injury as an excuse for failing to meet playoff expectation at the end of the season.

[Never Outhustled]

Yost is now 76-86 in his last 162 games.

[xisxisxis]

Excuses, excuses, it's getting tiresome to hear. If the lost of Yo is that massive, then why bother playing any further, they might as well fold up for the season. At least that will save many fans from spending their hard-earned money and precious time watching the team suck. There's still so many games left to do something and fight for a playoff spot, think I will be sick if DM or Yost use Yo's injury as an excuse for failing to meet playoff expectation at the end of the season.

 

This team has been unofficially rebuilding for 6 years and Melvin hasn't once stated a timetable for turning this team around because he wants your hard earned money no matter how disappointing this team has been. We heard plenty of excuses in 2006 for the teams performance setback, I'm not holding my breath this year. Then last year, in the throws of another meltdown by a Yost lead team, Melvin and Attanasio fall over each other to assure Nedly his job was safe. In the face of pretty strong fan discontent. Why? Because their cash registers were ringing up big revenues with record attendance. Until the lifeline to Attanasio's pocketbook takes a hit they simply don't care whether the fans are unhappy. This is a big business and money talks.

[TooLiveBrew]

I've tried to play nice on Yost, rationalizing that he's not much worse than any other manager (heck, I even vowed to stay out of this thread for the season http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/eyes.gif )... tonight for me, though, was too much. The sheer fact that he still has no clue how to manage Dave Bush is a perfect microcosm of nearly everything I find wrong with Ned Yost.

 

 

No one warming as the 6th started? Ok, I can't get too upset about that.

 

No one warming after the 2-R HR in the 6th? Wow.

 

No one warming after the solo HR that followed? I'm speechless.

 

 

Please do correct me if I'm wrong on that sequence, as I was watching the FSN-Florida broadcast. They were very good in every other instance (if they missed this one) of showing RPs as they warmed. It's not like there weren't signs that Bush was pitching the same way that h does nearly every time out -- walked the leadoff man, and then got lucky that Helms's smash was hit right to Cameron.

[Roscoe Chill]

I love it when people see the light on Ned Yost! Welcome TLB!

[jazzytrav]

Yost is now 76-86 in his last 162 games.

The funny thing is that August was a complete meltdown, and all we heard the entire time was "We're still in 1st place!". Everyone was waiting for the turnaround when we reclaim a big lead in the division and march into October. But it never happened. Then this year was supposed to be the year. And we're all waiting for the turnaround. I would love to think it's gonna happen, but until I see at least a flicker, how are we supposed to believe it will ever come?

[ozzybourne]

Yost is now 76-86 in his last 162 games.

The funny thing is that August was a complete meltdown, and all we heard the entire time was "We're still in 1st place!". Everyone was waiting for the turnaround when we reclaim a big lead in the division and march into October. But it never happened. Then this year was supposed to be the year. And we're all waiting for the turnaround. I would love to think it's gonna happen, but until I see at least a flicker, how are we supposed to believe it will ever come?

as nektar said, tomorrow never comes. we've been waiting for moses for a long time. and i know ned yost...and he is no moses.

 

(apologies to d.quayle)

[TooLiveBrew]

I love it when people see the light on Ned Yost! Welcome TLB!

I'm sure you remember how strongly I loathe Ned Yost. I just tried out giving him the benefit of the doubt for the start of the 2008 season, to try something new. Ned Yost is not a capable MLB manager. Freddi Gonzalez, on the other hand, has impressed me so far -- not much small ball + competence in handling his pitching staff. That's a wicked combo.

 

Just for an example, he had Gregg warming with a runner on first & two outs [in the 9th]. He had the foresight to prepare for the slight possibility a HR would get the Crew close, as opposed to hoping the Brewers wouldn't hit a HR.

 

 

EDIT: bracketed segment, for clarity

[1992casey]

I love it when people see the light on Ned Yost! Welcome TLB!

NDOGG44, TooLive is very good about being objective. If he sees an argument that doesn't hold water, he'll refute it, even if it temporarily makes him appear to be on the opposite side of the larger issue at hand.

 

That's the way to go about it. I think Yost should go, too, but it has to be for the right reasons. Except maybe for current timing, I do think the right reasons exist, but I also think that some of the reasons people offer for firing him are poor.

[StatPipes]

TooLive was also shocked when I said I would rather have Berkman than Prince, and disagreed that Weeks was an upgrade over Matsui. If you are just looking at pure power, than maybe, but I like to consider all of the intangibles. Those hold water. But that is what is great about these subjects, they are just opinions.

 

To stay on subject, I don't agree with some of the moves Yost makes, but you can only play the hand your dealt. And right now, he really can't help that the starting rotation is in shambles, or that Gagne has blown 5 saves, or that the offense hasn't been what was (that dreaded word) projected. There aren't many options to counter with. You can shake things up just to shake em, but with the same ingredients you are likely to get similiar results.

[adambr2]

Ned Yost is 77-85 in his last 162 games. I'm predicting his Brewer tenure will be over Friday morning.

Just for comparison sake, in their last 162 games...

 

Jim Leyland is 80-82

Ron Gardenhire is 79-83

Bobby Cox is 81-81

Bruce Bochy is 68-94.

 

Which of those guys is a bad manager? Not sure record in the last 162 games is a great way to judge a manager.

If you're going to judge a manager by his last 162 games, you have to do it relative to the talent he has had to work with. Ned Yost going 68-94 his first 162 games as a Brewer was a major success. Ned Yost going 75-87 in his last 162 games with us is an utter failure.

 

Bochy has a horrible team to work with. Barry Zito and a complete garbage lineup.

 

Cox has a very proven track record and less talent to work with on his team. Leyland also has a track record for success, but even though his team should be much better than they've been in the last 162, the argument that Yost is doing fine because there are 1-2 managers out there doing worse just doesn't do it for me.

[TooLiveBrew]

Cox has a very proven track record and less talent to work with on his team.

Less talent? You might want to check out ATL's roster again. They've got some very solid players. And fwiw, Cox's 'track record' was built upon having even more talented teams that, semi-famously, underachieved in the eyes of many (1 WS title to 8,467 NL titles).

[danzig6767]

I don't by any means feel Yost was the main culprit in the Brewers blowing their big lead last year or why the Brewers are struggling right now, managers in baseball IMO have a fairly limited impact on the success or failure of a team. With that said, i do think they have some impact and overall i don't think Ned is a good manager.

 

As much as he can get on my nerves, i think if LaRussa was managing the Brewers last year, we win roughly an extra 3-4 games and win the division.

[Bruce Ciskie]

Less talent? You might want to check out ATL's roster again. They've got some very solid players. And fwiw, Cox's 'track record' was built upon having even more talented teams that, semi-famously, underachieved in the eyes of many (1 WS title to 8,467 NL titles).

 

Where did Ned learn how to be a manager?

 

Heh...isn't it interesting how all these things tie together? Who better to teach a guy how to underachieve than Bobby Cox? http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/laugh.gif

 

 

[Never Outhustled]

Ned Yost is not a capable MLB manager. Freddi Gonzalez, on the other hand, has impressed me so far -- not much small ball + competence in handling his pitching staff. That's a wicked combo.

Freddi's teams overachieving at the MLB level while Ned's team underachieve must just be coincidence, just like when Freddi consistently won at the minor league level while Yost was a massive loser in the minors. Or at least thats the pile Doug Melvin keeps trying to feed us.

[adambr2]

Cox has a very proven track record and less talent to work with on his team.

Less talent? You might want to check out ATL's roster again. They've got some very solid players. And fwiw, Cox's 'track record' was built upon having even more talented teams that, semi-famously, underachieved in the eyes of many (1 WS title to 8,467 NL titles).

I'm not debating that the Braves are a talented team, I just don't think they have as much overall talent on their roster as we do.

 

But again, this isn't about Cox, it's about Yost, and pointing out a couple managers that have been worse over the last 162 games isn't a very convincing argument that Ned is the right man for the job here.

[TooLiveBrew]

Freddi's teams overachieving at the MLB level while Ned's team underachieve must just be coincidence, just like when Freddi consistently won at the minor league level while Yost was a massive loser in the minors.

 

I don't mean their records, which I view to be an awful gauge of a manager. I mean their strategical tendencies. I admit I don't have enough of a sample to be sure with Gonzalez, but what little I've seen, I like. He'd be close to my ideal managerial hire -- limited small ball, proactive yet knowledgeable with his pitching.