Designated Yost Thread... Latest: No accountability and lack of urgency (part 3)

[Roscoe Chill]

Now, I'd be all for some lineup changes and things like that, I just dont think critiquing his interview style and responses should lead to hiring/firing

 

Of course his interview style shouldn't lead to his firing...how far he's taken the team is grounds enough for that. The interview style is just an extension of his personality. It's a constant reminder of how this guy isn't the right guy for the job. His responses to 'tough' questions can be looked at as how he deals with 'tough' situations in his job.

[Brewer Fever]

naivin, please just stop asking the question. Why does any manager ever get fired?

I'll take that to mean you don't have an answer.

I gave you plenty of an answer. It just wasn't black and white enough for you. In the real world, it rarely is.

[sheethead]

My question that you refuse or are incapable of answering was as to a specific point of what some think Yost should say...that saying something to the effect of "4 errors is unacceptable" to the media would be preferrable. Preferrable why?

 

Because it is indeed unacceptable. It would be beneficial for Ned's sake to show some sign he feels this way. The comment Ned made leads me to believe that he doesn't see yesterday's performance as unacceptable. In fact, he just believes that it happens to other teams so what's the big deal.

 

Don't worry about how I feel, I only buy tickets, parking, watch the telecasts, and shop for apparel and memorabilia. I think we need to worry about how the players feel. How protected are they? Do they feel like fetuses in the womb? Is daddy keeping the nasty heat away from them? Something like... "No way, my players couldn't possibly be playing as bad as you tell me they are. They are good players." How is this type of nurturing managing healthy to the growth of these professionals? Any way you slice it, its not.

[sheethead]

The interview style is just an extension of his personality. It's a constant reminder of how this guy isn't the right guy for the job. His responses to 'tough' questions can be looked at as how he deals with 'tough' situations in his job.

 

So true. It is very parallel and easy for most to see.

[naivin]

Brewer Fever wrote:

I gave you plenty of an answer. It just wasn't black and white enough for you. In the real world, it rarely is.

 

To a different question, sure...Here's the question I asked...

 

How would saying, "Four errors is completely unacceptable. We have been stressing better defense since last season ended and a major league team should never commit four errors in a game." to the assembled media make the Brewers better? I'm not talking about saying that to the team, I am talking about the specific criticism people like to bring up about his coomments to the media.

Again, if it is so that the fans feel, better, I'm cool with that, but at least have the stones to call it what it is. If not, provide me any reason why comments like those would make the team better.

 

[jazzytrav]

There is accountability in the clubhouse, you just dont see it in the media interview room.

I assume you've been in the clubhouse to witness this, right?

 

When his responses to the media involve making excuses for everything, and the players on the field seem to be making the same mistakes, at some point you start to realize that these things go hand-in-hand.

 

And naivin:

 

If you want him to say it simply to make you feel better as jazzytrav (perhaps unwittingly) admitted, that's cool, but lets call it what it is.

You completely misread my post and turned it into something that it is not. Baseball is entertainment, and it's a business. In any business, if employees aren't performing, people (fans) will leave the business because of poor service or whatever. Now imagine that you have some trainees that come through the system and they all have been extremely successful in their training. Then they go out on the job and start out showing the success that they had in training. Throw in a few other new employees that were successful at other companies in the same position. Suddenly they all start failing, and the only common denominator is their manager. At some point, you have to figure out who is screwing this all up, because the customers are leaving. Luckily, you already have their business locked up for the rest of the year, but if you want that business to keep coming back years down the road, you better figure out who is screwing it up now.

[Brewer Fever]

Since there is no black and white reason why a little public bashing might light a fire under a team's butt, I'll throw another unanswerable question right back at you. Why does Lou Pinella publicly criticize his players? Why does he feel as though it will get his team to play better? Point is...why keep asking a question you know you're not going to get an answer to that satisfies you.

 

Sidenote: Nice bomb by Braun!

[Beast Light]

No, actually I get it just fine. What exactly does hold players accountable mean though? Should he be putting Hall, Cameron and Weeks on the bench and playing Counsell, Dillon, and Kapler every day? Would that be preferable? I'm sure nobody would criticize him for that. Other than putting guys on the bench, how else does a manager hold players accountable, by crticizing them publicly?

No, he should not be putting them on the bench every day but if a player is so thick-skulled that he can't get the message otherwise, then I don't have a problem with it. The manager runs the team, not the players.

 

The Rich Hill example is a pretty bad one...He's in AAA at the moment. Did that experience make him better? Not yet. Did it make the Cubs better? Well, yes I suppose it has, because his replacement is performing better. What alternatives does Yost have to the guys who aren't performing (This also quickly enters Doug Melvin's realm from a telent perspective)?

You completely missed the point. The point is the message that is sent to the TEAM by removing a pitcher in the 2nd inning because he is not throwing strikes, regardless of how many runs he has given up. This has nothing to do with Rich Hill has his 2008 performance and everything to do with Lou Piniella letting his team know that they are going to play "his way" or not at all.

 

Let me create a similar scenario and tell you what I would like to see out of a Brewer's manager, given the current culture of this team.

 

It is the bottom of the 6th inning, no outs and the Brewers are tied with the Cubs 4-4. Ted Lilly has just walked Prince Fielder and Corey Hart on 9 pitches. Bill Hall comes to the plate and works the count to 3-0. On the fourth pitch, he swings and pops out to the second baseman ...Joe Dillon comes into the game at 3B in the top of the 7th. When asked why the move was made after the game, the manager says something to effect of "That was not the situation to be swinging at pitches. We had a pitcher that just walked 2 guys on 9 pitches and we gotta be trying to load the bases to set ourselves up for a big inning".

 

The manager sent a message loud and clear when he removed Bill Hall from the game. He also validated the message by holding Bill Hall accountable without even using his name in the post game conference. He acknowldeges that what happened at the plate was unacceptable, yet he doesn't uses Bill Hall's name. I think that this is the type of thing that many of us would like to see. Instead, Ned would probably not remove Hall from the game and if asked about it in the post game, he would probably say something to the effect of, "You know, you score runs by swinging the bat. Billy saw a pitch he liked and he just missed it. That stuff happens. If he connects and doubles to the gap, we score 2 runs..."

[Fatter than Joey]

"The Red Sox made a bunch of errors, too, and they're world champions," Milwaukee manager Ned Yost said. "Think they're learning anything tonight? It happens. You make errors."

 

The problem as I see it, is that the Brewers routinely make 3-4 errors a game (not nec. official scorer errors), if the Brewers were playing stellar D all season, and then had a game where they booted 4 balls as a matter of luck -- I think Yost's statement would have been appropriate.

 

But, when your team plays very poor fundamental baseball day in day out, the statement Yost made was rather idiotic IMO.

[naivin]

And naivin:

If you want him to say it simply to make you feel better as jazzytrav (perhaps unwittingly) admitted, that's cool, but lets call it what it is.

You completely misread my post and turned it into something that it is not. Baseball is entertainment, and it's a business. In any business, if employees aren't performing, people (fans) will leave the business because of poor service or whatever. Now imagine that you have some trainees that come through the system and they all have been extremely successful in their training. Then they go out on the job and start out showing the success that they had in training. Throw in a few other new employees that were successful at other companies in the same position. Suddenly they all start failing, and the only common denominator is their manager. At some point, you have to figure out who is screwing this all up, because the customers are leaving. Luckily, you already have their business locked up for the rest of the year, but if you want that business to keep coming back years down the road, you better figure out who is screwing it up now.

 

That's all fine...but it has nothing to do with what I was talking about. I asked a very specific question about comments to the media, and what impact they would have on the field. You made it very clear why you wanted to hear him react differently to the media, and its cool. Nothing to indicate it would lead to more wins, but it would make you feel better. That's fine, and you want Yost gone for other reasons...that's fine too.

[jazzytrav]

And it would lead to more wins.

 

I figured that was implied.

[naivin]

And it would lead to more wins.

 

How exactly would it do that? That is what I would like someone...anyone to tell me.

[sheethead]

"[referring to Furcal] He does a lot, but for us to sit here and say that's the reason we're not winning, that's certainly not the case," said Torre. "Don't get me wrong. He's missed. The young kid that's playing [Chin-lung Hu] is doing the best he can. We still need to pitch better." -Joe Torre after the 5-3 loss in the opening game of the Brewers v. Dodgers series.

 

Can you imagine Ned Yost mentioning how the Brewers need to pitch better after losing 5-3? Just read some of Torre's comments, they are in a completely different class than what comes out of Ned's mouth. What happened after these comments? Wins. Coincidence? Anyone can argue it is, and anyone can argue it isn't. The bottom line is the comments made by managers, or people for that matter, often reflect their thought process.

 

A little bit of realism mixed in with a touch of positive spin topped off with some "we still need to pitch better." Joe Torre is an actual MLB manager and would have looked awesome in a Brewers uniform.

[jazzytrav]

Because holding people accountable forces them to realize where their mistakes are and consciously try not to make the same mistakes in the future. If you keep making excuses for someone's mistakes, they won't have any motivation to stop making them. Obviously they'll have financial motivation and things like that, but if the skipper says it's okay, then why put too much effort into changing it?

 

And the only time I ever see him hold anyone accountable is when he uses a player to take the fall for his own mistakes.

[Beast Light]

Naivin,

Can you please do me a favor and provide an example of a major league manager that has been deservedly fired and explain why the firing was deserved? Also, I am looking for an example that is purely baseball related and not a firing that was the result of off the field conduct or someone simply distastefully representing a franchise. Thanks!

[lcbj68c]

I assume you've been in the clubhouse to witness this, right?

I believe I clearly wrote that I have heard it from behind closed doors and that's good enough for me.

 

 

(cleaned up code --1992)

[sheethead]

I assume you've been in the clubhouse to witness this, right?

 

I believe I clearly wrote that I have heard it from behind closed doors and that's good enough for me.

Any insight as to what was actually being said? Or was it just yelling? Screaming and yelling isn't good enough for me, I would need to know what was being screamed and yelled.

[lcbj68c]

Any insight as to what was actually being said? Or was it just yelling? Screaming and yelling isn't good enough for me, I would need to know what was being screamed and yelled.

Not a lot decipherable language, my employer's confidentiality agreements as well as this board's language policy don't allow me to go much further. I can tell you this, he is a passionate man with an ability to lead and get his players motivated in the clubhouse. In the media room, not so much.

 

 

(cleaned up code --1992)

[TheBucketheadBrigader]

And why does it have to be public criticism? Why can't you just say four errors is unacceptable? Why do you have to say "The World Champions made errors too, so...?" That's what I'm talking about.

And I'll ask one more time still...for what purpose?

 

I don't understand your stance here, Naivin. I'm thoroughly convinced that Ned's world of rainbows and butterflies that he portrays to the media is exactly the way he manages behind closed doors. What evidence do you have to prove otherwise? A nice, well rounded collapse after a hot start last season, and many, many mediocre seasons prior to that? I don't WANT to hear "Soup pitched well tonight" when his line is 5 IP, 9 H, 5 ER. Because that's a false statement. He didn't pitch well.

Either that, or we get "we didn't give this game away, the [insert team here] just earned it." He used that one after a Fielder error led to a Dodgers victory the other night, right along with a Mota blown save. So, if logical connections can be made, if we didn't blow it, they just played better than we did, is Ned telling the media (and his players) that other teams are just better than we are, and that's why we continue to lose and they continue to beat us? That's not the message I want my manager giving his players.

I like Ned Yost. I think he's a good guy. I just think he's way too soft of a manager for this team. I don't know who would be a suitable replacement, but I've finally come to the conclusion that we're never going to win anything of consequence with Ned at the helm. And since we don't have the money to hold on to ALL of these players, our window for success will never be that large. Luckily, Gamel and LaPorta will bring more fire power, and the window may be open for a few more years.

So you ask for what purpose? Well, we can keep doing what we're doing. Not make any changes. Keep pretending nothing is wrong. And at the end of the year when we're battling for 5th place in the NL Central, you can begin asking yourself what is wrong with that picture.

In the mean time, I WILL support Ned because he's my manager and the Brewers are my team. But I'll continue to disagree with how he runs this team.

EDIT: Why are there no spaces in my paragraphs? This looks all jumbled and it isn't supposed to be...

EDIT AGAIN: Nevermind, didn't realize we were using HTML.

[lcbj68c]

I agree with you Brigade, we are just trying to quantify how blowing up to the media will result in wins on the playing field.

[TheBucketheadBrigader]

I agree with you Brigade, we are just trying to quantify how blowing up to the media will result in wins on the playing field.

 

Sometimes a simple "no comment" when asked about something, like 4 errors, an umpteenth blown save, etc. can speak volumes. I'm not necessarily sure pulling a Bob Knight to the media would really solve anything, but I'm hoping we all agree that the constant coddling isn't helping ANYONE. It would be nice if Ned showed some outward sign of distress or discomfort that such a talented team continues to struggle, and hasn't actually had an elongated stretch of good baseball since early in the 2007 season. Something has to give.

[adambr2]

Yost should stock up on sunflower seeds and grab a few bags from the dugouts while he still can.

[Postseason2006]

I wanted Ned gone two years ago and was fried on this forum for it. He is the nice guy equivalent to Mike Sherman. Please, when will this trainwreck end?

[Postseason2006]

3 straight road sweeps and now Ned is happy how we swung the bats. Did he watch the whiffs today or Prince gagging? How about Prince's D? Yet, he pulls Braun last year? How about DHing Fielder and bringing up Nelson? Man that would've made no sense?

[adambr2]

Wow, Yost sure looked beat in the post-game interview. I would guess he's not sleeping too comfortably these days.