Designated Yost Thread... Latest: No accountability and lack of urgency (part 3)

[lcbj68c]

As a long time vaunted Yost-Supporter and advocate, I am officially done. I've never screamed at my tv over a bullpen move like I did last night and that was before Mota even threw a pitch. Each hit with no response from Yost to make a change was more and more exasperating. I've supported a lot of the things he did and still believe in the general way he managers a game, but no longer with the bullpen. Any other manager, when a reliever gets lit up for two line drive shots makes a change with no outs and he didn't do it, nevermind the fact that a change did not need to be made from Villanueva anyhow. I believe it was some Shakespeare novel, "I bite thee thumb at you" which is the equivilant of a 1 finger salute. With a golden opportunity to get within 2 of the wildcard and a handful back of the Cubs, you sir sat in the dugout absoulutely clueless as to how to step up a be a leader. Unfold your tattoo stricken arms and go take charge, snatch the ball out of that goofy arse blue glove and show this team, this administration, this fan base that he failed with the first two batters and you aren't standing for it. But no. Instead sit back and watch another tick be added to the loss column you stubborn piece.

[1992casey]

I am officially done.

 

When people switch Nedly bandwagons, there's usually a last straw incident that prompts the conversion. Last night's bullpen management caused this with two members (lcbj68c and OldSchoolSnapper). My last straw incident was the Jenkins non-move against Dempster last year, although I feel hitting Pujols is still the decision that tops them all.

[Postseason2006]

Hey, but Jenkins struggled against Dempter....only 2 hits vs Mench's none.... Ha!

[dlk9s]

Yeah, I'm done with Yost, too. I was holding out as long as I could, but last night was just asinine. And I don't even care about the Kapler/Cameron thing, as Cameron has been terrible at the plate (after all, Kapler did drive in the first run). The pitching decision/reasoning was the last straw. For pete's sake, at least give the media a better reason for the pitching change.

[cnycerveceros]

I've basically always been non-committal about Yost. Watching him waste what was otherwise a very solid game last night by removing Villanueva and sticking with Mota so long really upset me. I hate it when I feel like I've wasted time watching, but it seemed like you could see that Mota collapse coming from the first batter he faced. The balls were hit hard, not bloopers. It made no sense to bring or keep him in, so I'm not more than willing to say 'Yosted.'

[tigerbrew]

My last straw incident was the Jenkins non-move against Dempster last year, although I feel hitting Pujols is still the decision that tops them all.

Yeah, I agree that hitting Pujols was his worst managerial decision to date. It was certainly Unforgetable and Unforgivable to me.

 

[dayzedcrewfan]

Yeah gotta say that I have held out on a Yost comment for as long as possible also but my lord last night's decision was one of the dumbest, and to quote a post above, asinine things I have ever seen. I mean there have been plenty of things he has done that makes me raise an eyebrow (or two or four), but why take out Villanueva? And the "we" comment to the media? If I was a reporter I would have really had to try hard to bite my tongue. There is no reason that we should lose that game and give up a great opportunity to move closer in the standings. Unbelievable.

[Fatter than Joey]

As a long time vaunted Yost-Supporter and advocate, I am officially done.

 

Welcome to the dark side. Your media kit will be mailed to you shorty.

[Team Canada]

This is why the Save stat needs to die. Good grief. I couldn't believe that quote.

[RU Rah Rah]

If there is any ballpark where you need to play your best defensive outfielder its Coors Field which has by far the most outfield space. kapler isnt bad defensively but Cameron is golg glove quality and needed at the very least to be in there in the late innings.

Excellent point about the room at Coors. I had sort of forgotten about how spacious it is out there.

 

[1992casey]

Bringing in Mota didn't bother me half as much as removing Villanueva. Yes, the two went together, but what I'm saying is that had the situation called for bringing in a pitcher, and Mota happened to be the choice, I wouldn't have complained.

 

This situation didn't call for a pitching change at all, though. As others have mentioned, Carlos only had 10 pitches under his belt. Additionally, a situation where he would have been batting didn't even arise.

 

Had the #9 spot come up, that bridge could have been crossed when it happened. While there might have been cause for disagreement had Villanueva been lifted at that point, the cases on either side of the argument wouldn't have been nearly as strong as the case against the move that occurred last night.

[Minigoon]

Had the Brewers gotten Kendall home, Yost said he would have stuck with Villanueva another inning. Why?

"It's not a save situation," Yost explained.

It already was a save situation when Villanueva was brought in. If Villy closes out the game pitching the 7th, 8th and 9th, he earns the save. It happened last season for Villy and Shouse I believe.

[MillerParkSouth]

This is why the Save stat needs to die. Good grief. I couldn't believe that quote.

 

I just about threw my laptop across the room when I read that. Villy throws 10 pitches, looks FANTASTIC and you pull him because it's 'not a save situation'??? He managed to completely kill the momentum we had from our homestand and start this very important road trip out on a complete downer. This is about a big a Yosting as I can remember. Inexcusable.

[Thurston Fluff]

Since I thought it was the rihgt move last night before it backfired I guess I should admit that now. Villy did look fine but he has had his share of problems this season. His confidence was not very high and he just managed to get through the 7th with no problem in a notoriously hitter friendly park. Being a soft tosser who needs to locate his pitches in a place that isn't conducive to that type of pitcher I don't think his tossing one good innning automatically means he's going to have the same thing happen the next inning. See Brian Shouse for an example of what happens to that type of pitcher there. Mota has a better fastball and is a veteran setup guy used to that role and that park from his days in LA. It wasn't a bad move IMO it just didn't work. Part of Ned's job is to get young players like Villy into situations to rebuild his shaken confidence and avoid bad situations that could hamper it. He did that. What he didn't get was a good performance out of his two veteran relievers. But of course it couldn't possibly be the fault of the player not performing to the level they have all season long. It always has to be the manager's fault.

[lukevan]

Villy has been great since moving to the pen, I'm not sure we need to worry about his confidence in throwing another inning. He himself said he was expecting to go back out for the 8th. And if he lets a couple of guys on, that's when you can go to Mota. At that point, it isn't Ned's fault, but he made an unnecessary move with very poor reasoning.

 

I have been a staunch defender of Ned's when I feel he is unfairly blamed for poor team performance, but I have to say that Ned pressed the wrong button last night.

[endaround]

See my giving up on Ned came at the beginning of last season when he played Mench over Hart versus right handed pitchers.

[Postseason2006]

I don't think his tossing one good innning automatically means he's going to have the same thing happen the next inning.

The same goes for Mota. Disagreeing with the fact of those arguing, also does not allow for the arguing the reverse is the same. Ned made a mistake and compounded it allowing Mota to continue to lose the lead. That alone should warant a GM to take him behind closed doors.

 

When I make a mistake with decision making, my boss talks to me. When is Melvin doing to do this with Yost and his continual brain farts?

[JohnBriggs12]

Being a soft tosser who needs to locate his pitches in a place that isn't conducive to that type of pitcher I don't think his tossing one good inning automatically means he's going to have the same thing happen the next inning.

Backupcatchers,

 

Villanueva gets hitters out because of his ability to change speeds, and command what is an average (89-90) fastball, not a soft toss. The bane of Coors field is lack of movement on pitches. Though Villanueva normally has a solid curve ball and a decent slider in his arsenal, his big weapon is location and change of speed. You also say "his confidence was not high"? What have you been watching? He'd been lights out in 4 straight (5 if you count last night) relief appearences where he had fanned 12 and walked zero in 7 innings. His confidence has never been higher. In fact he still believes (as I do) he should be starting.

 

No, there was no reason to remove Villanueva last night. His spot in the batting order didn't come up in the top of the inning and he had thrown just 10 pitches. It was strictlty push button by the book managing that Yost invariably falls into every year. Furthermore of the 3 guys in that lineup that can hurt you, 2 are lefthanded where Villanueva's changeup is the superior out pitch to Mota's slider or fastball. In fact, lefties are hitting just .216 off Villanueva.

 

The other thing a manager should have on his mind is that in Coors Field the margin for error is reduced. Every time you make a pitching change you add risk because you don't know if the reliever coming in has it that day. Villanueva had already shown he had command in the 7th and had plenty in the tank.

 

 

(pared back long quote --1992)

[JumpinMacFlash]

I turned on the game at the start of the bottom of the eighth, so I hadn't seen Villanueva pitch and I didn't know how much he had thrown or how well he had done. At that point, I didn't really see the harm in bringing in Mota since I hadn't seen the rest of the game. I was really frustrated that no one else was up in the bullpen until there was already one run in and runners on second and third with nobody out. Why not have someone else up just in case? Mota didn't look sharp for the first two batters. It doesn't take Shouse long to warm up, why not have him up to face Helton?

 

You could tell Mota wasn't on, so why keep him in? I don't necessarily think the error was bringing in Mota, it was not removing him sooner.

[Thurston Fluff]

You also say "his confidence was not high"? What have you been watching? He'd been lights out in 4 straight (5 if you count last night) relief appearences where he had fanned 12 and walked zero in 7 innings.

 

I guess I was watching more than 7 innings of his this year. He has been great in the limited time he has pitched lately. Part of the reason for that is the limited number of batters he has faced in his last 5 outings. 7 innning in 5 outings appears to me to be a sign that Ned is limiting his exposure until he's certain Villy is back to where he should be. Locating all his pitches when he wants in any count like he has in the past when he was effective. Coors is not the place to tempt fate when there are other options to go to. Especially when two of his four pitches are not going to do what he wants them to.

As far as his changeing speeds go you are right. However his mediocre fastball and change are not going to be as effective without his curve and slider mixed in. Villy needs to have all his pitches working to be effective since none of them are spectacular on their own. Way easier to sit on an 88 MPH fastball when the only other option he has is a changeup that good hitter will foul off. That means perhaps one inning of exposure is probably enough for the opposition to see what he has and adjust to it if allowed. I'm not defending Yost as much as I am myself because, as I said, I thought it was the right move before it blew up. It'd be a bit hypocritcal of me not to admit that now. AS i said if Mota and Shouse did what they are paid to do it doesn't look like a bad move at all. If Villy went out and blew chuncks I have no doubt others would have been saying the same thing about the game being Yosted. Probably for all the reasons I have for why it was a good move regardless of how it turned out.

[T B0NE 10]

I think we are stuck with Yost for the rest of the year after that home stand.

But last nights loss was definitely a Yosted loss IMO. Cameron should have been in center field. When you spend all that money on a gold glove OF, you better use him in the biggest outfield in the game. You don't put some old journeyman in just because he had one good game.

[Thurston Fluff]

You could tell Mota wasn't on, so why keep him in? I don't necessarily think the error was bringing in Mota, it was not removing him sooner.

 

totally agree with that. Though Shouse isn't a great option in Coors he should have been in earlier or someone else should have been up beside him. Ned had been better this season with the pen IMO but he still has a ways to go.

 

You don't put some old journeyman in just because he had one good game.

 

Actually his 330BA, 360OBP and 543 Slugging was done over 42 games this season. Cameron had been absolutely brutal at the plate recently striking out about half the time and getting few hits or walks the other half. I'd still agree with Cameron in for defense if Kapler was a butcher in the field but he isn't too shabby himself.

[Raw Biz]

I guess I was watching more than 7 innings of his this year. He has been great in the limited time he has pitched lately. Part of the reason for that is the limited number of batters he has faced in his last 5 outings. 7 innning in 5 outings appears to me to be a sign that Ned is limiting his exposure until he's certain Villy is back to where he should be.

Obviously the 7 innings in 5 outings is because he's in the bullpen now, where he has been the most effective (going back to last year). I don't think you take into account his starts this year in assessing whether or not he should have pitched another inning last night because starting is different than coming out of the pen. And if you do take into account his starts, he usually pitched well the first one or two times through the order. It's when he got to the 4th or 5th inning that he started to have problems so keeping Villy in for the 8th should have been the most obvious decision. But then again, we all know Yost doesn't stick to the obvious choice and has to do something stupid. And then when he does do something stupid, he doesn't admit he was wrong. I almost want to say that I wouldn't hate Yost as much if he would just admit that he made the wrong decision sometimes. But he never does, in his mind, he always does the right thing and it just never pans out. At this point, I think we should just let Kapler be a player/manager. I'm only half-serious on that but it would be pretty cool if it happened. He couldn't do any worse than Yost.

[lukevan]

To be fair, Yost admitting he made a mistake by bringing in Mota might be detrimental to Guillermo's psyche as a late inning guy. No one really wins in that scenario except the Yost bashers.

[silversurferr]

Fire him. I like him, but he continually makes the SAME damn mistakes. What angers me the most is that you can see most of them coming, before they happen. Mota's blow up was a prime example. Although Mota might appreciate Ned's confidence and support, I guarantee his teammates did not like it.