Designated Yost Thread... Latest: No accountability and lack of urgency (part 4)

[sheethead]

Mota's been playing with fire for much of the season. In spite of Yost's public defense of Mota, my guess is he's on a very short leash for meaningful situations.

 

You mean since last Friday (6/7), correct?

 

At least the man was smart enough to put Hart at the top of the order (as he should be). I bet he can even make his own grilled cheese. That Ned Yost, doing just enough to make the right people happy. Starting now, I am going to model my professional career after that of Ned Yost. I'm not that smart, so it should work very, very well.

[Thurston Fluff]

TLB while you are certainly correct we should be able to expect that out of pros that certainly wasn't the case here. Sexon didn't always run to first, Hernadez sat out the season's final series two consecutive years to avoid setting the k record, Sanchez, well don't need to mention his work ethic. When Ned came that did change. Even if the players weren't any good they played hard and always to the end. If not they ended up gone ASAP. As far as Estrada goes I think that had more to do with the options they had than anything. It would have been pretty hard to bench him in the middle of a pennant race and not been rightfully critisized for it. He did do the next best thing though and he was shipped out after one season.

 

I don't think a manager has much impact on hustle or lack thereof

 

On this we'll just have to agree to disagree. itend to thinl it's one of the most significant things a manager does. Way further up the ladder than game maangement IMO. Which is why can agree he isn't the worlds best game manager yet think he's a fine manager overall.

 

Or that Braun missed a sign... there are other examples of Yost throwing his guys under the bus.

 

I've never viewed say a player messed up a play as throwing them under the bus. I think throwing someone under the bus is more like saying they aren't working hard enough to remember the signs or he's not going to trust someone next time becuase he missed a sing last time. If someone askes a question about what happened on the hit and run he simply said Kendall missed the sing. He usually follows those comments up about how that happens everyonce in a while to the best of us and said player is usually so good at that sort of thing and he feels worse about it than anyone else ect.

[sheethead]

Sexon didn't always run to first

 

Come on here, there are plenty of current Brewers that are guilty of this.

 

When Ned came that did change. Even if the players weren't any good they played hard and always to the end.

 

While I might in the future, I haven't bought into this yet. I just don't see it. When they are down, or give up 5 in the 8th to go down by 2 runs, they do seem to quit at times. I have seen enough quit in this team to not be able to buy into the "played hard and always to the end" belief. For me, I don't see it.

[craigharmann]

I just don't think that a manager should get credit for guys hustling & playing the game 'right.'

Wasn't Jimmy Rollins, the reigning NL MVP sat recently during a game for not hustling to first on a pop out? When writers and others got up in arms about it, JRoll said he deserved it because it's the one club rule. Even though these guys are paid millions of dollars to play the game and execute, there is a reason a manager is in place.

 

[Thurston Fluff]

Come on here, there are plenty of current Brewers that are guilty of this.

 

I guess you must see something that I don't then.

[TooLiveBrew]

On this we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

I can live with that. I believe it's down near the bottom of managerial 'doings'/impact.

 

 

Sexon didn't always run to first, Hernadez sat out the season's final series two consecutive years to avoid setting the k record, Sanchez, well don't need to mention his work ethic.

 

Prince doesn't always run to first -- MLBers tend to pick their spots very, very well. If the play is in doubt, the hustle is there almost every single time. When you've chopped one to an IF who handles it cleanly, and you're as slow as Prince/Richie, not busting your butt to 1B makes a bit more sense.

 

Also, you've pointed out several players -- I don't know that any manager would have had an impact on whether or not Richie (or Prince) would not hustle all-out on every grounder... or make Alex Sanchez not suck at life. Iirc, Hernandez was kept out by Royster (is that right?). I just don't think there's much a mananger can do to get a guy that doesn't hustle to do so, or to get one that does hustle to not do so.

 

One reason I think we've seen an upturn in player 'character' is that the F.O. has made it a priority to not take just any ol' jerkwad that can play. We aren't those Brewers anymore. Yost's 'clubhouse attitude' is much more likely an example of the F.O. placing a priority on 'character' than it is that they brought Ned in to make sweeping changes to guys' personalities.

 

Boy we sure love to debate this Yost fella, huh? http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

 

EDIT: Even though these guys are paid millions of dollars to play the game and execute, there is a reason a manager is in place.

 

I agree -- to manage the game, player substitutions, keep the guys fresh & as healthy as a mgr. can. I just don't think benching your SS for not running out an IF pop-up sends any kind of message, other than it gets the media salivating all over you, because it makes them feel good.

 

I know when I played, I hustled my butt off (lack of talent will do that for ya) -- but I also got yelled at for not hustling out a handful of IF pops in my years. Every single time I 'didn't hustle' on a pop, it was because I was mad at myself for putting a crappy swing on a ball I should have smacked. It had nothing to do with my character, or my attitude... I just got frustrated & kinda lost where I was. I was not benched, and it didn't spiral into a perilous pit of laziness. I still hustled my butt off, because it was up to me, not my coach.

[craigharmann]

I just don't think benching your SS for not running out an IF pop-up sends any kind of message, other than it gets the media salivating all over you, because it makes them feel good.

The Phillies have one team rule. Hustle. If you don't, you're benched. Last time I checked, the Phillies had made it to the playoffs more recently than the Brewers

[TooLiveBrew]

Actually, two -- Hustle, & be on time. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

Ok, so now the 'hustle' policy = playoffs? Sign me up! Something tells me the 5 guys with 20 or more HR, & team OPS of .812 (.354 OBP) had more to do with them making the playoffs than the threat of being benched if you don't run out a pop-up.

 

I know fans like it, and I don't think there's anything wrong with it (I actually like guys being held accountable for being lazy/jerks). I just don't think it is a 'culture of winning' kind of thing.

[logan82]

TooLiveBrew wrote:

I just don't think benching your SS for not running out an IF pop-up sends any kind of message, other than it gets the media salivating all over you, because it makes them feel good.

Don't forget the fans. It makes some fans happy to see a manager doing something like that.

[adambr2]

This isn't a Ned-bashing post, but I think the concept that Ned is a motivator and his guys work harder and give more effort and never quit moreso than any other manager is a complete myth.

 

He sure didn't get Estrada to hustle.

 

Guys still don't sprint out ground balls for us any more than any other team.

 

Not trying to call him out specifically, but Hart has been lacksidasical at times in RF.

 

On multiple occasions, guys have hit balls that they thought were either homeruns or foul, that were not, and weren't even halfway down the line to first by the time they figured this out. I can think of specific incidents with Hall, Branyan, and Kendall.

 

We're not a team that often rallies from behind to win when we have 8th or 9th inning deficits, at a higher rate than other MLB teams. I don't see where our manager gets his guys to "never say die" and "keep battling" while guys that play for other managers just pack it in when they're down late.

 

If you want to praise Ned, that's fine, but like others have said -- I just don't see anything here. Yost has never struck me as a fiery motivator and I kind of doubt that players fear his reactions if they lollygag down the line to first.

 

And I'm not putting this on Ned -- well, not entirely. It IS his job to get on guys that aren't hustling and take action if necessary. But their responsibility to hustle should be understood, it shouldn't need reinforcement. These are grown men and professional baseball players and shouldn't need to be told to sprint to 1st base rather than jog when they hit a routine groundball to SS. But using the word "battle" 964 times in press conference over the course of the season doesn't make Ned a motivator.

[sheethead]

The Phillies have one team rule. Hustle. If you don't, you're benched. Last time I checked, the Phillies had made it to the playoffs more recently than the Brewers

 

I find it hard to believe the Phillies only have one team rule. It might be called the "one team rule," but I doubt its the only one.

[sheethead]

Backupcatchers[/b]]I guess you must see something that I don't then.

I guess I do, like when Cameron stands in the batters box to watch his homerun hit the foul pole. What happens if its off the wall... long single, that's what happens. I can't believe you haven't seen players dog to first base on infield grounders or pop-ups. It happens every game! The only team I see religiously hustle every play out is the St Louis Cardinals. And I don't put that onun on the manager, its on the players. The manager manages the game, the players play it. You can't convince me that Ned "8th Inning Guy" Yost is changing the human behavior of these athletes. With all due respect, its not a good arguement.

 

Now, like Melvin said, changing the culture is what he may have accomplished. Changed it from a laughing stock circus to a competitive atmosphere. Now we need someone to take it from competitive to dominating. Ned Yost will never dominate anyone, he is too stubborn and not smart enough.

[Bucky Rules]

You mean since last Friday (6/7), correct?

What is since last Friday? Mota's sucking? or my supposed short leash?

Mota pretty much started the season off pretty bad, but got lucky in April. He allowe 22 base runners in 13 innings, yet still had an ERA under 3. He had a decent May, but since the end of May and so far early in June he has stunk. Since the stinking is pretty much the career norm for Guillermo, my guess - and it's only a guess - is that the leash will be short. Especially when we add another option when Riske returns (not that he's great, but it's another option). Vote of confidence in his "8th inning guy" or not. We'll see. The vote of confidence in Turnbow resulted in him almost never being used in tight situations -- and ultimately a demotion to AAA.

 

And this would all be very consistent with Ned's resistance to bashing his players publicly. And by the way... this trait - which I consider a good one - causes him an enormous amount of grief. Because one day he'll support a player in a press conference and two days later the player's role will be reduced. And then he gets bashed for being a waffler. The guy isn't necessarily waffling, he just isn't going to air his every thought to the press if it means publicly criticizing a player. I'm not sure when that characteristic became a bad one. But, it certainly hasn't worked in favor of Ned's public perception.

[TooLiveBrew]

The only team I see religiously hustle every play out is the St Louis Cardinals. And I don't put that [one] on the manager, its on the players.

 

Further eveidence that David Eckstein is more powerful than 1,000 LaRussas!

 

 

Now, like Melvin said, changing the culture is what he may have accomplished. Changed it from a laughing stock circus to a competitive atmosphere.

 

Even on this one, I'd point to how the 'culture' changed from crappy players to talented ones. I think the best quality Ned has at this point is that he's very familiar with the vast majority of the Brewers. There is something to be said for that, though probably not much.

[BillHall02]

Bucky Rules. I completely agree with you. I can't believe people get on Ned's case when he says one thing to the press, only to do another on the field. ESPECIALLY when this is the result of Ned not wanting to bash a player publicly. Not sure how more people don't catch this.

[sheethead]

I was referring to the short leash.

 

And I don't care if he bashes his players to the press or not. I care that his philosophy changes from day to day. I don't see how more people don't catch this.

[jazzytrav]

Bucky Rules. I completely agree with you. I can't believe people get on Ned's case when he says one thing to the press, only to do another on the field. ESPECIALLY when this is the result of Ned not wanting to bash a player publicly. Not sure how more people don't catch this.

 

Maybe because he bashes his players publicly?

[Thurston Fluff]

One reason I think we've seen an upturn in player character' is that the F.O. has made it a priority to not take just any ol' jerkwad that can play. We aren't those Brewers anymore. Yost's 'clubhouse attitude' is much more likely an example of the F.O. placing a priority on 'character' than it is that they brought Ned in to make sweeping changes to guys' personalities.

I think it's a combination of the two. Ned and Doug communicate well and they don't allow slackers to stay on the team longer than necessary.
Perhaps we could come to an agreement that the two together have helped create an environment of accountability. Which would go back to why there is more to Ned's job than we see. I do realize they can't just sit guys like Prince out because he doesn't run out a grounder because doing so would harm the team's success this season. But if someone like Prince doesn't always hustle like Ned likes his status in the organization would change accordingly. Estrada is a perfect example of that.
i guess it should be pointed out the front office did bring in Tavares who isn't exactly a choir boy. I think like Ned having to use Estrada last season Doug had to do what was necessary to improve the talent. Even if sometimes it is not ideal.

Now, like Melvin said, changing the culture is what he may have accomplished. Changed it from a laughing stock circus to a competitive atmosphere. Now we need someone to take it from competitive to dominating. Ned Yost will never dominate anyone, he is too stubborn and not smart enough.

Why not have the guy who took the team this far keep going? He took a team that was 106 loss bad and immediately instilled some professionalism in it. Then, when the talent arrived he started to win more than he lost. At this very moment as I type this he's leading this team to a slightly better record than last year and is in the middle of yet another post season race. If he can keep improving this team at the pace he has been then his past success with this team would indicate he will indeed be capable of taking it from competitive to contender.

[Bruce Ciskie]

The thing that drives me nuts about Ned is his tendency to argue for certain matchups with statistics ONLY when those statistics back up what he wants to do.

 

For example...the right thing to do tonight, based on matchups, would be to sit Branyan against the lefty and play Dillon at 2B, Hall at 3B (as much as I don't want that). This is especially true if Hardy's out again, because that will put Counsell in the lineup. Branyan has never ever ever ever ever hit lefties with any consistency and should never be counted on to do so.

 

But nothing Ned does would surprise me. The only way, however, that he backs up his decision with any statistical evidence is if he does what I described above. Otherwise, he's just playing a hunch with Branyan out there.

[naivin]

Maybe because he bashes his players publicly?

 

He hasn't held one player accountable to the media, unless that player made a mistake that was actually Yost's fault (Kendall after suicide squeeze).

So which is it, he bashes them publicly and throws them under the bus, or doesn't hold them accountable to the media? And since I assume your answer will be that he bashes them publicly, some examples would be nice.

[endaround]

The thing that drives me nuts about Ned is his tendency to argue for certain matchups with statistics ONLY when those statistics back up what he wants to do.

 

For example...the right thing to do tonight, based on matchups, would be to sit Branyan against the lefty and play Dillon at 2B, Hall at 3B (as much as I don't want that). This is especially true if Hardy's out again, because that will put Counsell in the lineup. Branyan has never ever ever ever ever hit lefties with any consistency and should never be counted on to do so.

 

But nothing Ned does would surprise me. The only way, however, that he backs up his decision with any statistical evidence is if he does what I described above. Otherwise, he's just playing a hunch with Branyan out there.

Dillon can't play 2B. He can't move to his left. That game in Colorado he let 3 balls go by him without getting a glove on it.

 

[Bruce Ciskie]

Dillon can't play 2B, yet he's playing it tonight.

 

Odd.

[jazzytrav]

Maybe because he bashes his players publicly?

He hasn't held one player accountable to the media, unless that player made a mistake that was actually Yost's fault (Kendall after suicide squeeze).

So which is it, he bashes them publicly and throws them under the bus, or doesn't hold them accountable to the media? And since I assume your answer will be that he bashes them publicly, some examples would be nice.

 

Read the part in bold. I thought it was pretty clear what I was saying. Bashing a player when something is actually Ned's fault and holding a player accountable are completely different things.

[naivin]

Read the part in bold. I thought it was pretty clear what I was saying. Bashing a player when something is actually Ned's fault and holding a player accountable are completely different things.

 

So he did this once, and the player involved publicly said the same thing Ned did, and that translates into Ned bahing players?

[Never Outhustled]

Dillon can't play 2B. He can't move to his left. That game in Colorado he let 3 balls go by him without getting a glove on it.

I agree. Dillon plays an allright 3B, but is real poor at 2B. Hall is a better 2B than 3B. Dillon should platoon with Branyan at 3B, and Hall should play 1 of the middle infield positions fulltime while our 2 injury prone middle infielders are out.