Designated Yost Thread... Latest: No accountability and lack of urgency (part 4)

[sheethead]

To say the Brewers have the talent of an 85 win team is purely subjective. I do like how Yost said Parra is a battler right after he shredded him for the hanging breaking pitch to Tejada.

[Thurston Fluff]

To say the Brewers have the talent of an 85 win team is purely subjective.

 

An 83 win team that only marginally upgrades it's talent, if that, then losses one of it's top pitchers is likely to be about an 85 win team the next year don't you think?

[sheethead]

So if the Brewers are only going to win 85 games, the Cubs are going to win 103, and the Cardinals 97... why should I care anymore?

I for one am not someone who likes to project wins. The game is too unpredictable for me to do so, and in my opinion a fruitless cause. It might be fun to do the math, but its a strawman's arguement for topics like this.

The 83 wins last year is what it is, however I thought they could have won at least 88. After all, this time last year they were supposed to win 87.

[sheethead]

Who isn't wondering why Mota pitched the 8th today after going 2 last night? With a 4 run lead, again.

 

This thread should never be on the second page.

[FVBrewerFan]

I do like how Yost said Parra is a battler right after he shredded him for the hanging breaking pitch to Tejada.

 

Yost's stat ff the year: Number of non-battlers on the roster- 0/25, or as a percentage 0.000

[jazzytrav]

I believe the quote was something like, "Manny battled out there, he's a battler. You know, he competes."

 

I know he said at least two battles in one sentence. Can't remember the rest of it.

[AJAY]

Jayson Stark of ESPN has some interesting comments about Yost's job situation . . . .

 

 

 

Nobody wanted Ned Yost to walk the plank when the 2007 Brewers won 24 of their first 34. But that was before a 7½-game lead in July disappeared by Labor Day. That was before the 2008 Brewers plummeted to 20-24, seven games back of the Cubs, a month and a half into the season.

 

And that was before the fire-Ned-Yost talk began to feel like more than typical talk-show blabbering.

 

It was all over baseball for a while there. Brewers players were telling their friends they thought the end might be near. Scouts were saying they'd heard it from their sources inside the club. Friends of owner Mark Attanasio were talking about the owner's feeling that this was a make-the-playoffs-or-else kind of season.

 

How true that was, how close Yost actually came to getting gonged, we may never know -- because a 12-out-of-16 streak made it all a moot discussion. Now GM Doug Melvin can honestly say his team's record after 64 games (33-31) was only one game worse than last year. Now he can look to ESPN.com's own RPI chart and point out that his team actually has outplayed its "expected" won-lost record.

 

So Ned Yost isn't going to get fired. Not anytime soon, at least. And his GM is fighting to make sure people get that message.

 

"I'm going to defend Ned as much as I can because I feel it's the right thing to do," Melvin said. "I feel strongly that Ned has done more for this organization than the won-loss column shows at times. ...

 

"Ned brought a culture change to this organization," Melvin went on. "People don't remember where the Milwaukee Brewers were when he got here. Just like I think Joe Maddon has changed the culture in Tampa Bay and Mike Scioscia has changed the culture of the Angels, I think there's a culture change that managers bring to an organization that's more important than wins and losses, and nobody ever talks about it."

 

Yost has backed his young players more than they even know, Melvin said. He has promoted longtime minor league soldiers to his coaching staff. His team plays hard. So why does his seat still seem so hot?

 

Expectations have a lot to do with it, of course, particularly in a town that hasn't seen a postseason game since the Reagan administration. But some of those expectations, Melvin says, were based on an assumption that "our division was supposed to be the weakest in baseball. But right now, it's one of the strongest."

 

And Yost's bullpen -- which ranks 12th in the NL and 20th in baseball -- hasn't made him look brilliant at times, either.

 

"What's hurting some of these managers more than anything in the game today," Melvin said, "is bullpen situations. Most of the second-guessing you hear is about pitching moves."

 

Yeah, good point. It sure is coincidental how ingenious Ozzie Guillen and Charlie Manuel look now that their bullpens lead their league in ERA, isn't it?

 

Nevertheless, "in the end, we're all judged on wins and losses," Melvin said. "But I really believe, for all that Ned has done for this organization -- four years ago, our organization was nothing -- I really believe Ned deserves every chance."

 

So he'll no doubt get it. But there's also no doubt the endgame hasn't changed. And the endgame is: Yost very well may have to make the playoffs to save his job.

 

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&page=rumblings

[kiwi brewer]

spot on. captured the last two months to a "T" in my opinion.

 

this could go under the clubhouse in disarray thread, too, couldn't it?

[giffted1]

I'm glad to see that Ned's boss agrees with the handful of Yost supporters left here.

[Jay Zahn]

Who isn't wondering why Mota pitched the 8th today after going 2 last night? With a 4 run lead, again.

 

This thread should never be on the second page.

Here's Mota's record when he pitched the day after pitching 2 or more innings:

 

6/24/2002 1 IP, 2 H, 1 R, 1 ER, 0 BB, 2 SO

7/23/2002 0.2 IP, 0 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 0 BB, 0 SO

9/18/2002 1 IP, 0 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 0 BB, 1 SO

4/7/2003 0.2 IP, 2 H, 1 R, 1 ER, 0 BB, 0 SO

4/19/2003 1 IP, 0 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 1 BB, 2 SO

4/27/2003 0.1 IP, 1 H, 1 R, 1 ER, 1 BB, 0 SO

5/2/2003 1 IP, 0 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 0 BB, 3 SO

8/13/2003 1.1 IP, 0 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 0 BB, 3 SO

8/28/2003 0.2 IP, 1 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 0 BB, 0 SO

9/17/2003 0.2 IP, 0 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 1 BB, 1 SO

9/20/2003 1 IP, 2 H, 1 R, 1 ER, 1 BB, 1 SO

5/8/2004 1 IP, 0 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 0 BB, 2 SO

5/26/2004 1.2 IP, 1 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 2 BB, 1 SO

7/4/2004 1 IP, 1 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 0 BB, 2 SO (Mota also pitched 2 scoreless innings the next day)

7/17/2004 1 IP, 2 H, 2 R, 2 ER, 1 BB, 0 SO

9/20/2004 2 IP, 0 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 0 BB, 2 SO

6/30/2005 0.2 IP, 1 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 0 BB, 1 SO

6/20/2007 1 IP, 0 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 0 BB, 0 SO

5/25/2008 1.1 IP, 1 H, 1 R, 1 ER, 1 BB, 1 SO

6/12/2008 1 IP, 2 H, 2 R, 2 ER, 0 BB, 0 SO

 

Total 20 IP, 16 H, 9 R, 9 ER, 8 BB, 22 SO, 4.10 ERA.

 

Mota's career ERA is 3.93. Even with the outing today, where the runs should have been unearned, does this seem significant?

 

Mota also has a lower ERA pitching on no rest than not.

 

 

[endaround]

What Mota did in 2002 has no relevance to what he's like in 2008. There's a reason its happened as much this year than already than it has in three past three seasons. Its bad management.

[sheethead]

Mota's career ERA is 3.93. Even with the outing today, where the runs should have been unearned, does this seem significant?

Good research Jay. Do you think Ned Yost was looking at all those numbers when he made his decision? How many of those 2 inning games did Mota pitch the night before a day game? Also, what happened to the 8th inning guy only coming in with a 3 run or less lead? Its really all about the contradictions. Those are what frustrates me the most. And the lack of common sense, that frustrates me too.

[endaround]

The problem was the upside is: His 8th inning close game guy got to pitch the 8th

 

Downside: Mota is (or should be) unavailable today

 

You have two pitchers, Tavarez and Dillard, whom have now gone without pitching since the 7th so you added a little more rust to them

 

You added an unnecessary inning onto Mota for the season, one where his arm was likely tired.

[lcbj68c]

I have no problem with McClung retaliating.

But did he have to hit the #3 batter, just because Braun bats 3rd?

I dont know that anybody, including Yost, thought of it like that. I reckon it was just the first opportunity with two out and nobody on.

[Tbadder]

Hey, if you live by the stupid macho unwritten rule, you die by it. No big deal. Take your loss, grin and bear.

[Bucky Rules]

The problem was the upside is: His 8th inning close game guy got to pitch the 8th

 

Downside: Mota is (or should be) unavailable today

 

You have two pitchers, Tavarez and Dillard, whom have now gone without pitching since the 7th so you added a little more rust to them

 

You added an unnecessary inning onto Mota for the season, one where his arm was likely tired.

 

Personally, I would consider Mota not being available today the upside. Especially, when you consider it saved an inning - and more importantly an appearance - for somebody else's arm that I'd much rather use if the game is close today. Furthermore, we got to use Mota in the 8th in a situation where it's unlikely he's going to blow the game. Another upside. I'm missing where the downside is in this situation. Mota's been playing with fire for much of the season. In spite of Yost's public defense of Mota, my guess is he's on a very short leash for meaningful situations. And if Riske comes back soon, the leash gets that much shorter.

[jazzytrav]

I'm glad to see that Ned's boss agrees with the handful of Yost supporters left here.

 

Were you expecting him to say something different?

 

Come on, you guys are the ones saying that we shouldn't take Ned's press conferences at face value, so why should we take anything that Melvin has to say about Ned at face value?

[logan82]

jazzytrav wrote:

Come on, you guys are the ones saying that we shouldn't take Ned's press conferences at face value, so why should we take anything that Melvin has to say about Ned at face value?

You shouldn't, but people still like to take both at what they say.

[Thurston Fluff]

Come on, you guys are the ones saying that we shouldn't take Ned's press conferences at face value, so why should we take anything that Melvin has to say about Ned at face value?

 

I don't necessaily take his at face value but he did say some of the things I tried to say much more clearly than I ever have. Some of the things Doug did mention can be taken as true since they are verifiable. Like promoting from within, and to a lesser extent his bringing about some professionalism to the clubhouse. This team does not give up and certianly plays hard to the last out and it has since Yost has come here. I can recall a few occasions where they didn't and those players were not around very long.

The other obvious reason there is some amount of merit to what Melvin says is the fact that Ned still has a job. Doug was more or less stating why he thinks Ned has done a good job and why he continues to pull a check. If those statements were being made at a press conference saying they appreciated what Ned brought to the table but felt it was time to go in another direction I'd agree it was bluster. That he said those things when Ned isn't in any danger of losing his job, is 4 game above .500 despite a heavy road schedule, loss of YoGa, Weeks, Gagne, Cappy and Riske, and still positioning itself to make a run at post season, looks to me to be more why he is doing a good job than Doug making excuses.

[logan82]

I was pretty happy to hear Melvin say he didn't really worry about batting order because he thought it didn't really matter much.

[TooLiveBrew]

This team does not give up and certianly plays hard to the last out and it has since Yost has come here.

 

I respect your stance, Buc, but this is something I can't get too excited about. These guys are pros, and I don't think the hustle has much (if anything) to do with Ned. It's about the players. Having Yost for a manger sure didn't make Estrada hustle, and he wasn't 'sent packing' until his contract expired at the end of the season.

 

I agree with you that I love the players' collective mindset, which does indeed appear to be a 'hustle, & fight 'til the very last out' mentality. I just don't think that has much to do with Yost (in either direction).

[Bucky Rules]

I agree with you that I love the players' collective mindset, which does indeed appear to be a 'hustle, & fight 'til the very last out' mentality. I just don't think that has much to do with Yost (in either direction).

Maybe, maybe not. But, prior to Yost's arrival it was a problem with the Brewers. And it is one thing that he has singled players out for very consistently throughout his tenure here -- although not publicly, but instead with playing time.

[TooLiveBrew]

But, prior to Yost's arrival it was a problem with the Brewers. And it is one thing that he has singled players out for very consistently throughout his tenure here

 

Prior to Yost, the problem was crappy players, not whether or not they hustled.

 

I'm a bit confused, though -- if Yost so consistently 'singles guys out' for lack of hustle, it would seem that the example of Estrada points out that it hasn't been consistent.

 

I don't think a manager has much impact on hustle or lack thereof more than a feel-good story when the team's winning, and an extra ounce of blame when the team struggles. I think some fans are taking for granted that the vast majority of MLB guys hustle; the ones that don't just stand out in the memory more.

[Bucky Rules]

I'm a bit confused, though -- if Yost so consistently 'singles guys out' for lack of hustle, it would seem that the example of Estrada points out that it hasn't been consistent.

As I recall Estrada was sat down for a period last year. They called it a hamstring injury. Yost has never been anything but supportive of his players publicly, other than to ocassionally say player X has to get it going. It is not unusual for these incidents to be pointed out "unofficially" by beat writers -- even in the case of Alex Sanchez, and the episode with Bill Hall a few years back. There were a couple of others where specific examples escape me.

 

Furthermore... Estrada isn't with the team after one short season. It seems very consistent to me in comparison to how he dealt with Sanchez.

[TooLiveBrew]

Furthermore... Estrada isn't with the team after one short season. It seems very consistent to me in comparison to how he dealt with Sanchez.

 

His contract expired, he sucked with us, and he didn't hustle. I see two causes there that'd probably trump the third one (in terms of whether or not to re-sign/release a guy).

 

I just don't think that a manager should get credit for guys hustling & playing the game 'right.' There just aren't enough MLBers that don't hustle to make me think any one type of manager does anything to 'get that' from his players. As fans we just remember the guys that don't hustle. Yes, Yost has 'benched' guys due to lack of hustle. Many managers do this, and I just don't think it has that much of an effect.

 

Tony LaRussa will bench a player for striking out when the H&R is on... does that make him a great manager, or does it make his players better? All I think it serves to do is make guys feel heat for the sake of feeling heat. Hey -- I'm a tough manager! I'm glad Yost doesn't pull stunts like that (also see John Gibbons).

 

 

Yost has never been anything but supportive of his players publicly, other than to ocassionally say player X has to get it going.

 

Or that Braun missed a sign... there are other examples of Yost throwing his guys under the bus.