Designated Yost Thread... Latest: No accountability and lack of urgency (part 4)

[bullox]

I vote you.

I'd love to if I didn't have so much crap going on right now with my job and moving into a new place. I'll put it on my list.

Thing is, you seem to sport the contrarian angle to the argument, and then you put the onus on others to prove you wrong. It doesn't really work that way.

 

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

Thing is, you seem to sport the contrarian angle to the argument, and then you put the onus on others to prove you wrong. It doesn't really work that way.

I have cited many points why I think I am right just like everyone else has. I just haven't conducted a study, and again, who has?

[bullox]

I have cited many points why I think I am right just like everyone else has. I just haven't conducted a study, and again, who has?

That's great and all, but it still puts you in the minority. If your voice is to be truly heard, a seriously compelling argument needs to be laid out. Possibly even via a study. Hey, someone just had an idea about that, who was that again?

 

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

That's great and all, but it still puts you in the minority. If your voice is to be truly heard, a seriously compelling argument needs to be laid out. Possibly even via a study. Hey, someone just had an idea about that, who was that again?

That really doesn't bother me that I'm in the minority considering some of the greatest points made in human history started in the minority. I could come up with the "seriously compelling argument", but I'll just let this all play out and when the Brewers make the playoffs a couple times in the next few years, the study won't even be needed, because Ned Yost will have brought us to the playoffs and that will be something no other manager has done since some guy named Harvey Kuenn. That will be enough for me to think Yost is a good manager. Will it be good enough for you? Hypothetically?

[logan82]

TuesdaysWithRillo wrote:

Tony LaRussa and Lou Pinella are "this is how it's done in MLB" type managers and I think they do ok. What GM's are considered SABRmetrics guys? Billy Beane comes to mind, and I know Bill James has a huge influence in Boston. Any others?

The only thing thing those guys do well is pick organizations to manager for that will put out a consistently good team year to year to make them look good.

 

SABRmetrics may not be the proper term, but I don't think any team does things very differently. They all pick a closer and stick with their guy. I doubt many teams optimize their lineup either, although I am not much of a believer that it makes much difference.

[Baldkin]

Not all of Yost's decisions result in wins or losses for the team.

The problem is, he keeps on making the wrong decisions. Just because something works out in hindsight, doesn't mean it was the right decision. Just because he brought in Aquino in the 8th inning of a tie game last year and he got through it... didn't mean it was wise to bring him in with Hunter Pence up and 2 on in the 8th later in the year.

 

Small sample size got Kevin Mench 150 AB's vs RHP last year, instead of Gabe Gross or Corey Hart. It got Tony Gwynn way too many AB's last year as well.

Now its getting Gabe Kapler AB's over Mike Cameron.

 

Time and time again, Ned doesn't put his players in the best position to succeed.

[Dragonbait]

Now I think right now giving some AB's to Kapler over Cameron isn't hurting the team. Everyone keeps saying its a game of results; well, right now, Gabe is getting results and Mike isnt. Will that be different next week? There's a good possiblility that could happen, but for now, giving Gabe a start or two a week is NOT hurting this team in the least.

[RU Rah Rah]

That really doesn't bother me that I'm in the minority considering some of the greatest points made in human history started in the minority. I could come up with the "seriously compelling argument", but I'll just let this all play out and when the Brewers make the playoffs a couple times in the next few years, the study won't even be needed, because Ned Yost will have brought us to the playoffs and that will be something no other manager has done since some guy named Harvey Kuenn. That will be enough for me to think Yost is a good manager. Will it be good enough for you? Hypothetically?

Yes.

 

[sheethead]

I honestly think that we would find many of the same faults watching any manager day after day. What we really need if we want a change would be a new GM who believes more in SABRmetrics instead of "this is how it's done in MLB."

 

Terry Francona does not Yost the Red Sox, and is an awesome interview. I have watched many Boston games and have never questioned his decision making. You could say many, but I wouldn't say any.

[jazzytrav]

Ned Yost will have brought us to the playoffs and that will be something no other manager has done since some guy named Harvey Kuenn. That will be enough for me to think Yost is a good manager. Will it be good enough for you? Hypothetically?

No. As far as the team results, it will definitely be good enough. But just because the team makes the playoffs doesn't mean Yost is doing a good job. I'm not saying that I definitely won't be satisfied, because his decision-making could get better and maybe that will help us get to the playoffs. But just GETTING to the playoffs does not make Yost a good manager.

 

Now I think right now giving some AB's to Kapler over Cameron isn't hurting the team. Everyone keeps saying its a game of results; well, right now, Gabe is getting results and Mike isnt. Will that be different next week? There's a good possiblility that could happen, but for now, giving Gabe a start or two a week is NOT hurting this team in the least.

A start or two a week is not the same as starting an entire series.

[TooLiveBrew]

Time and time again, Ned doesn't put his players in the best position to succeed.

 

This is the constant hangup I have with him. It's not that Yost is the worst manager in the league and any moron could do a better job. To me, it's that I think we can improve at manager. Perhaps only marginally, but imo that's nearly the worst-case scenario. At this point what Yost has over another candidate is the experience being around the players -- he knows them, they know him. Whether we as fans like it or not is a different animal; the players (at least outwardly) appear happy and/or content that he's the skipper.

[Thurston Fluff]

Contradiction? If he factors so little into winning games, then what exactly is he doing a good job at?

 

I thought i just went over a whole list of things he does well. A manager cannot make a player better than his skill set allows. He can allow that same player to slack off and not play hard all the time.

 

 

Terry Francona does not Yost the Red Sox, and is an awesome interview. I have watched many Boston games and have never questioned his decision making. You could say many, but I wouldn't say any.

 

Give Yost a $150 million payroll and allstars at every position and I kind of think he'd be a better manager and interview. It'd be nice to call up players only when they are ready to be in the bigs instead of having to bring them along to learn on the job like Ned had done wiht half this team. It's pretty darn easy to win when you have everything handed to you. Need and extra starter? No problem we'll plunk down 30 million just for the right to negotiate with an allstar caliber player. Need a little more pop in the lineup we'll by an allstar slugger. As far as how well Franona does in interviews that goes hand in hand with winning. Lot easier to be nice and happy with reporters when everything is going well.

[Fear The Chorizo]

To me it boils down to this - either it's Yost or it's Melvin and Yost...

 

if the talent on the field is good enough to win x number of games, then it's the manager's job to get that talent to produce. If the talent on the field isn't as good as what it was made out to be, then the blame starts shifting toward the GM - 99% of the time when the GM goes, the manager may as well pack his bags, too.

 

Regarding the Brewers, they definitely have more talent on their roster then when Melvin & Yost started working for the Brewers, but I'm not 100% sold on their current roster being good enough to contend. What I think has handcuffed them is how heavily they've relied on homegrown players and depending on none of them to be overrated. Small market teams need to do this in order to contend, but they also need to be able to identify early on whether a big-time prospect is worth keeping around for all of his pre-arby years, or if he's more valuable to trade for prospects/areas of need when his value is still sky-high.

 

Also, small market teams have to be able to develop a majority of their own bullpen in their minor leagues, so they can afford to pay their everyday players. I don't have the exact numbers, but I would think a vast majority of Milwaukee's payroll goes to their pitching staff, including their bullpen. Veteran relievers are nice to have, but they're also very expensive. Right now the Brewers have close to 20 million of their bullpen payroll either pitching ineffectively in the minors or sitting on the DL - not something that a small market team can afford if it expects to contend.

[TooLiveBrew]

Does anyone have recall on what Francona's tenure was like in Philly? I can go get the team's record while he was there, but I don't think that tells a whole lot.

[sheethead]

Give Yost a $150 million payroll and allstars at every position and I kind of think he'd be a better manager and interview.

 

The Red Sox do not have all-stars at every position, and I doubt this has anything to do with Francona putting in Papelbon in the 8th or when he plays Coco Puffs. Nor do I think it has anything to do with his vernacular or his ability to think on the fly.

 

It'd be nice to call up players only when they are ready to be in the bigs instead of having to bring them along to learn on the job like Ned had done wiht half this team.

Francona has had to do this with many players as well. The only difference is that he does it better so you don't see the glaring weaknesses of the new players.

 

Need and extra starter? No problem we'll plunk down 30 million just for the right to negotiate with an allstar caliber player.

Who is on the DL right now.

 

As far as how well Franona does in interviews that goes hand in hand with winning. Lot easier to be nice and happy with reporters when everything is going well.

 

I'll concede the point that it is easier to be nicer and happier with the media, however I was not arguing this point. It has nothing to do with the quality of what is said and the consistency of methodology.

[jazzytrav]

As far as how well Franona does in interviews that goes hand in hand with winning. Lot easier to be nice and happy with reporters when everything is going well.

 

I can't say this with any authority, but I imagine Francona deals with more crap from the media than Ned will ever see. If they lose any games to the Yankees he has to answer to it. Ned gets annoyed with the Milwaukee media, and that is sad. Francona has to deal with the Boston media, Torre had to deal with the New York media for years. I'm not saying that I necessarily think Torre is a very good manager, but he wasn't an idiot with a media that is a million times more brutal than what Ned has to deal with.

[Thurston Fluff]

sheethead if Francona is making the Sox so good why did he fail so misreably in Philly? He had 4 losing season's and no winnning ones. He finished with a 65-96 record his final year. Ned by comparison never had that many losses in any season withthe Brewers. Not even the first two were he had no talent to speak of. In his four year stint there he managed to complie a 285-362 record. What about that shows you he can make bad teams good?

 

Ned by comparison has a career record unitl this year is 374-435. This year that winning % is slowly getting better, not worse, like Francona's did in Philly. I realize Ned's winning % is nothing to write home about but I kind of think Fancona would have liked to have had that over what he had in Philly.

 

All in all I'll stand by my statement that the Sox make Francona look good and not the other way around.

[Bruce Ciskie]

That really doesn't bother me that I'm in the minority considering some of the greatest points made in human history started in the minority. I could come up with the "seriously compelling argument", but I'll just let this all play out and when the Brewers make the playoffs a couple times in the next few years, the study won't even be needed, because Ned Yost will have brought us to the playoffs and that will be something no other manager has done since some guy named Harvey Kuenn. That will be enough for me to think Yost is a good manager. Will it be good enough for you? Hypothetically?

 

Ned Yost will still be an idiot.

 

Similarly, Bob Brenly is an idiot, but he managed a World Series winner. And Barry Switzer won a Super Bowl.

 

Simply catching lightning in a bottle doesn't make you intelligent.

[sheethead]

I really haven't been talking about wins and losses per se, but if we must I will use the Yost arguement for Francona in Philly, too many injuries at the wrong time. In 2000, Schilling was hurt half the year, the closer was Jeff Brantley, Paul Byrd and Andy Ashby were terrible, Pat Burrell was a rookie, Scott Rolen and Bobby Abreu were the only offensive bright spots. All in all, Francona had 4 less wins total in 4 seasons in Philly than Yost had in his first 4 seasons in Milwaukee.

 

Again, to argue win and loss totals between the Red Sox and Brewers is like comparing apples to oranges. Like you said, the salaries are in two different worlds. I was simply comparing brain power and overall competence as an MLB manager.

[lcbj68c]

I dont have an opinion, but I think it is a fair comparison, not apples to oranges.

[RU Rah Rah]

All in all I'll stand by my statement that the Sox make Francona look good and not the other way around.

I think most people would agree with that. It's probably somewhat analogous to Torre with the Yankees.

 

But you seem to be edging toward the argument that Ned is a better manager than Francona. If that's true, then . . . would the Red Sox hire Ned to replace Francona, ever?

Of course not. No team in its right mind would hire Ned after his tenure with the Brewers ends.

[giffted1]

I'd bet in his Philly days Francona had some pretty hairy interviews. Either way, why do a manager's relations with the media even matter?

[Glennron]

Terry Francona does not Yost the Red Sox, and is an awesome interview. I have watched many Boston games and have never questioned his decision making. You could say many, but I wouldn't say any.

 

Give Yost a $150 million payroll and allstars at every position and I kind of think he'd be a better manager and interview. It'd be nice to call up players only when they are ready to be in the bigs instead of having to bring them along to learn on the job like Ned had done wiht half this team. It's pretty darn easy to win when you have everything handed to you. Need and extra starter? No problem we'll plunk down 30 million just for the right to negotiate with an allstar caliber player. Need a little more pop in the lineup we'll by an allstar slugger. As far as how well Franona does in interviews that goes hand in hand with winning. Lot easier to be nice and happy with reporters when everything is going well.

One thing that Francona does that Yost doesn't, which I'll admit might not make the biggest differences in the long run, is that he's not afraid to mix things up. He'll change around his lineup somewhat often, players might play in two different positions back to back games, etc. Yost refuses to ever play Hart in CF, even though he started some games there last year and may well be the CFer the next couple years. Second basemen must lead off and CF must bat 2nd (maybe that's why he doesn't put Hart there once in a while?). He puts Dillon at 2nd when Weeks isn't playing instead of switching up him and Hall. I guess it's just little things like that that can annoy me.

[sheethead]

No team in its right mind would hire Ned after his tenure with the Brewers ends.

 

Exactly. The fact of the matter is Ned Yost cannot handle the pressure of Major League Baseball in Milwaukee. In any other city he would be in the looney bin by now (with exception being maybe Kansas City).

[sheethead]

giffted1[/b]]I'd bet in his Philly days Francona had some pretty hairy interviews. Either way, why do a manager's relations with the media even matter?

It's a pretty good indicator as to how well they handle pressure.