Designated Yost Thread... Latest: No accountability and lack of urgency (part 4)

[DougJones43]

Oh Great. Then we get to hear another tirade from Bill Hall's agent for not having an everyday position.

He's already been put on the weak-side of a platoon. I doubt he's gonna get more unhappy. Who cares anyway. You can't let the inmates (or their agents) run the asylum.

[AJAY]

"We were doing everything we could do to try to salvage the series," the Brewers skipper said."You shoot the moon. I can't ever remember bringing my closer in in the eighth inning for a five-out save on the road. We did whatever we could do to win this ballgame."

 

Six years into his managerial career, he finally tries to go all out to win a game. Better late than never I guess.

 

Seriously, I should be praising Ned for his sudden sense of urgency. But instead, I am finding myself feeling even more disgusted that he didn't do stuff like this last season when we only needed TWO more stinkin' wins to tie the Cubs for first place. I just can not get over the fact that he single-handedly cost us the post-seaon and yet he still has a job. People in the real world get fired all the time for small and stupid things, but somehow Ned gets to keep a high-proifle job despite being completely brain dead and incompetent.

 

It just seems like the more he speaks and tries to explain himself, the more I find myself praying that he gets fired and thrown out the door.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

I'm still surprised that people still take Ned Yost's comments to the media at full price. I honestly think he just says random stuff to get the press conference over and manages according to his ideals. The more you analyze Yost's media comments, the more you realize how much they mean: nothing.

[sheethead]

The comments do mean something. Its a direct reflection of his incompetence.

[Thurston Fluff]

The comments do mean something. Its a direct reflection of his incompetence.

I guess every competent manager never once lied to the press. What Ned says to the press has no bearing on his competence what so ever. If he was worried about how people viewed him he would be more straight with the press. Instead of saying - I wanted Villy to build his confidence and didn't want to risk what we've built on so far with another inning, in that park, agisnt the heart of the order, I went to Mota. It wasn't my fault that Mota blew chuncks. - He says - Mota is my guy in that inning and hes' done a great job so far in that role. -
The next day we see Villy go two and Torres pitch in the 8th inning instead of Mota. Mota doesn't get thrown under the bus Villy doesn't' come off as mentally weak and everybody feels like their manager is going to do everything he can to protect them.

[TooLiveBrew]

Six years into his managerial career, he finally tries to go all out to win a game. Better late than never I guess.

 

Ned managing has a similar impact on me as my golfing -- in each case, there's just barely enough positive for me to 'come back', yet the realist in me knows all the pain and agony that's sure to lie ahead. Every once in a while, Ned will make the move that my brain is about ready to scream for, which puts me into a quieted sense of discomfort. Torres yesterday was one of those situations. It's like I get used to seeing Shouse v. righties & Mota against the meat of lineups in the 8th inning... and then Ned does something that makes sense. I usually get suspicious & start looking for that paint can from Home Alone to come crashing down on me. When that doesn't happen (it hasn't yet, anyway), I uncomfortably try to start enjoying the game again.

 

This, unfortunately, leads me to expect reasonable decisions from Yost in the subsequent games. And just like my slice off the tee, Ned's empty-headedness returns every time.

[1992casey]

This, unfortunately, leads me to expect reasonable decisions from Yost in the subsequent games.

 

It's like that month a couple years ago where Craig Counsell had four homers and a .900-plus OPS. You get tempted to think it'll continue, but you know it isn't going to happen.

[ESPNOwen]

TuesdaysWithRillo wrote:

---

I'm still surprised that people still take Ned Yost's comments to the media at full price. I honestly think he just says random stuff to get the press conference over and manages according to his ideals. The more you analyze Yost's media comments, the more you realize how much they mean: nothing.


OWEN:

This gets to the heart of the matter with Yost and Brewer fans. To me, the bottom line is that Yost has a mediocre roster to work with, so no matter what he does, things will often go wrong. According to Twins fans, Tom Kelly was a horrible manager between 1993 and 2000. Funny how smart he was when his roster was solid from 1987-1991. Does Yost make mistakes? Yes. Do they cost his team games? Sometimes. Is this any different than any other manager? Nope. Do I ask myself questions and then answer them. Yup. Does this make me seem a little crazy? Hang on while I ask one of my personalites...

I would get all the Yost bashing regarding removing Villenueva for Mota if Villenuava was Carlos Marmol and Mota was Ron Davis...but they're not. Mota has been very good for the Brewers all year. Villenuava has been up and down all year - although very good as of late. But for this team to succeed, don't both need to make contributions?
And everyone's overly happy because Yost leaves Torres in for more than an inning. If Yost continues to do this, I expect those who like it to admit it's a mistake when the reliever's arm falls off.

I have a question for those of you who contantly bash Yost; who is the manager you want to hire after you fire Yost? Think about it this way: Are the Phoenix Suns better off now that Terry Porter is their coach? Were the Bucks better off after they fired Terry Stotts and brought in Larry K?

[jazzytrav]

I think you're missing the point, Owen. It's not that we consistently want Torres in there for multiple innings, its that the situation called for it in this instance. And its not that taking Villanueva out and putting Mota in was a bad decision if he had a reason for it, but his reasoning was that Mota is "the 8th inning guy." And yes, I understand that most managers do things that way, but that doesn't mean we have to sit here and like it.

 

Of course there are managers that do things like that, but there are also some that manage with their gut a little bit. Putting someone in because he's the 8th inning guy or because he's the closer is completely robotic...it makes Ned unnecessary. Having Dillon bat leadoff and Kapler 2nd because they play the positions of the normal 1 and 2 guys? How much thought does Ned actually put into anything?

 

And please don't use examples of Bucks coaches. That's completely unfair. I expect more out of Melvin than I ever did from Harris.

[jeffy]

Then we get to hear another tirade from Bill Hall's agent for not having an everyday position.

 

So would Bill Hall rather ride the bench 3/4 of the time as the right-handed 3rd baseman only, or would he rather get a bit more playing time by filling in at 2nd and SS as needed and thereby also get the opportunity to prove to Yost that he can still hit right-handers?

[sgtcluels]

I missed the game as I don't have Cable yet. (Shakes fist at Time Warner).

 

I think the mistake in the handling of Mota is one of Yosts major flaws. He thinks that each guy has a roll and he will not go outside of it, no matter how bad they look. The fact of Mota is, he has had big time control issues in the past and should be handled in a manner that's aware of the situation. Same thing with his handling of Turnbow, he's shown that he has had some serious control issues and just let him sit out there. Mota has been good, and at times lights out. But he should be handled with care. When he shows control issues (and he clearly did from what I can tell) there should be someone up and ready to replace him if the "wheels come off"

[jazzytrav]

So would Bill Hall rather ride the bench 3/4 of the time as the right-handed 3rd baseman only, or would he rather get a bit more playing time by filling in at 2nd and SS as needed and thereby also get the opportunity to prove to Yost that he can still hit right-handers?

Not to mention possibly increasing his trade value by showing that he can hit righties. If he really wants to be traded, he's gotta make some teams want him. Showing his versatility would help that.

[TooLiveBrew]

Mota has been very good for the Brewers all year.

 

Ahh, selective memory -- very creative!

 

 

I have a question for those of you who contantly bash Yost; who is the manager you want to hire after you fire Yost?

 

This is the old Yost-defense question (not being combative, just observing). I can say with certainty (in my personal post-Extra Innings era) that the Brewers can improve at manager. There are plenty of candidates out there that have yet to get a managerial job in addition to those currently at the helm. Of course I don't know the unknown guys, because I'm not a MLB insider. But I know just in watching games that some managers don't let themselves get locked into defining player 'roles', & there are guys that don't hit-&-run their teams into outs (I personally think Ned is one of the best in terms of not using the h-&-r).

 

Give me a manager that understands that running your players a lot is not worth the risk in outs on the basepaths, that understands sacrificing outs to advance runners one base is a dated concept, and doesn't lock his players into unflexible roles, and I'll be happy. I understand that there's probably not the 'perfect' manager out there, but to think that the Brewers can't improve themselves there is not accurate. I know one guy that currently isn't employed (& heck, who knows if he wants a job) that gets mentioned a bit around here is Davey Johnson (Earl Weaver disciple). I'd be cool with that move, but I'm sure that -- given how the understanding of baseball has evolved -- there are numerous 'unknown' candidates, as well, that'd bring some fresh perspective.

[FidoMcCokefiend]

Same thing with his handling of Turnbow, he's shown that he has had some serious control issues and just let him sit out there. Mota has been good, and at times lights out. But he should be handled with care. When he shows control issues (and he clearly did from what I can tell) there should be someone up and ready to replace him if the "wheels come off"

Good points that are kind of lost in that whole issue of Villy/Mota. Mota was kept in until the lead was gone, that is a movie we've all seen too often; and it feels like Ned believes there's a rule against having a reliever up to begin an inning. With lefties up 3rd and 5th that inning, not having Shouse even loosening up to begin the inning isn't being proactive, and one of my gripes is Ned seems to be completely reactive vs proactive...

 

[FVBrewerFan]

I think the mistake in the handling of Mota is one of Yosts major flaws. He thinks that each guy has a roll and he will not go outside of it, no matter how bad they look.

And he will never admit he may have been wrong. Same game, he fails to make a defensive repalcement, that to me is common sense. Get Cameron out here for the late innings with a lead, a no brainer. What is Yost's answer? "Gabe is a good defensive player." No kidding, that's not an answer. Isn't Cameron a superior a defensive player Ned? Did the same thing playing Dillon at 2B yesterday, even an easier call to make- put CC in there in the late innings...is that so difficult? Makes me wonder what Ted Simmons does. Do you think he A) Tries to convince Ned to do what makes sense. B) Mentions things, but doesn't really push it or C) Miss these moves as easily as Ned does? I'm genuinly curious.

 

As far as the Villy/Mota decision goes, it's just Ned being stubborn. First game o nthe roadie, Protecting your ace's lead...that is not the time to stick to your guns. Nuance is lost on Ned. That's a game you try to win, and Villy was nasty that game. It's not like any of these guys are ten year All Stars that deserve special consideration. Where is it written that Mota pitches the 8th every game?

[ESPNOwen]

I think you're missing the point, Owen. It's not that we consistently want Torres in there for multiple innings, its that the situation called for it in this instance. And its not that taking Villanueva out and putting Mota in was a bad decision if he had a reason for it, but his reasoning was that Mota is "the 8th inning guy." And yes, I understand that most managers do things that way, but that doesn't mean we have to sit here and like it.

I understand your point - I just dont' agree with it. There's too much Yost bashing when the reality is that this roster is just not that good. So complaining about Yost, IMO, is pointless. Geez, he's not Art Howe. As for taking Yost at his word after every loss and then dissecting it, again, this says it all...

http://static.yuku.com//common/bypass/images/off_line.gifTuesdaysWithRillo			[-]
Posted: 06/08/08 11:31 PM	I'm still surprised that people still take Ned Yost's comments to the media at full price. I honestly think he just says random stuff to get the press conference over and manages according to his ideals. The more you analyze Yost's media comments, the more you realize how much they mean: nothing.

[TooLiveBrew]

Makes me wonder what Ted Simmons does. Do you think he A) Tries to convince Ned to do what makes sense. B) Mentions things, but doesn't really push it or C) Miss these moves as easily as Ned does? I'm genuinly curious.

 

One thing I've been wondering about a lot lately is if I'm imagining or projecting too much importance on the following, or if others have noticed similar things/occurances. I typically try to pay attention to guys when they show shots of the dugout, and readily admit that the 'small sample' concept has never been more accurately applicable.

 

However, the interactions that I've seen the cameras catch between Simba & Ned for quite some time now (talking at least the last three weeks) have been quite icy from Simmons's end. Many more than one occasion have I seen Ned approach Ted for conversation, to see Ted seemingly brush him off, leaving Ned sort of muttering to himself. It's made me wonder if Simmons is indeed a friend of Yost's, or if this aspect has been overstated. Like I said, I'm very aware that this is an ultimate "seems like" moment, but I'd appreciate others' input.

[brewcrew00]

I think you're reading too much into it TLB. I don't think Simba has any problems with Ned. You have to remember, these are both competitive guys who were going through a trying point in the season.

[1992casey]

Owen, you might find some interesting material in this thread:

 

Who would you replace Ned with?

 

Bump it up if you'd like, or go ahead and continue discussion here. The only request I'd have is that the Nedly replacement thread not turn into a Nedly referendum thread. Pretty much anything goes in this one. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[endaround]

I understand your point - I just dont' agree with it. There's too much Yost bashing when the reality is that this roster is just not that good. So complaining about Yost, IMO, is pointless. Geez, he's not Art Howe. As for taking Yost at his word after every loss and then dissecting it, again, this says it all...

http://static.yuku.com//common/bypass/images/off_line.gifTuesdaysWithRillo			[-]
Posted: 06/08/08 11:31 PM	I'm still surprised that people still take Ned Yost's comments to the media at full price. I honestly think he just says random stuff to get the press conference over and manages according to his ideals. The more you analyze Yost's media comments, the more you realize how much they mean: nothing.

Yes the team isn't the 27 Yankees. But you have it backward. If it was the 27 Yankees even a sports radio host would be bright enough to manage the team. Instead we have 83-85 win talent and need a manager to add not subtract wins from that to make the playoffs. Yost media comments do show a lot, the fact is he has no consistent philosophy shines right through everything he says. Yost used to be different with thw media but he broke down last season when teh team went south and has never recovered.

[Thurston Fluff]

Instead we have 83-85 win talent and need a manager to add not subtract wins from that to make the playoffs.

 

Just read in the JS this morning how there is a whopping 4 teams in baseball that have winning records on the road this year. The Brewers are one of the teams who have played the most road games in baseball. With the Brewers above .500 and on pace for 85 wins so far and more home than road games ahead that should mean more than 85 wins shouldn't it? I guess Ned must be doing something right.

[jazzytrav]

I guess Ned must be doing something right.

 

This is the most common response from those that support Yost. I don't get it. Don't get me wrong, I understand some reasons why people seem to like Ned...I don't agree with them, but I understand them. The problem is that the most common retort about anything regarding Ned is that he must be doing something right. I can't remember anyone naming something that he does consistently well. Even most supporters agree that he's not good with the bullpen. He was good with the young guys even though he now says that they're not young guys anymore even though he still called them kids in his press conference. I think we can all pretty much agree that he's horrible with the media. Hell, there are some days when I would take a Guillen press conference over one of Ned's. So what does he do well that justifies him keeping his job?

[ESPNOwen]

Yes the team isn't the 27 Yankees. But you have it backward. If it was the 27 Yankees even a sports radio host would be bright enough to manage the team.

 

I see.

 

You're lucky I don't throw my clown horn and "Wacky DJ Man of the Year" rubber chicken at you.

[Thurston Fluff]

I can't remember anyone naming something that he does consistently well.

I have on numerous occasions in fact if you go back to enough of my posts on this thread you should be able to find several of them but to refresh your memory, I'm more than happy to list some of my reasons for liking him.

He makes the players play hard all the time. He keeps them on an even keel even when things aren't going well. He never throws a player under the bus publicly. He communicates well with his players.

For an example of this just read the JS today were he told Torres to be ready to pitch more than one inning. He doesn't BS his players. For an example of this the JS had a quote from Villy about how Ned told him he still viewed him long term as a starter and Villy made a comment about how he has never been lied to by him before. He doesn't make knee jerk reactions when players are struggling and allows them enough time to sink or swim so there is no excuse when he does pull the plug.

Considering how long we suffered without a winning season It should be noted that he has been .500 or better two of the last three years (the only years it could reasonably be expected of him considering where he started from). The year he didn't have at least an even record was when the pitching staff lost half it's starters. He's on his way to another winning season this year.

He managed to take scrap heap players like Kolb, Davis, and Turnbow and get something out of nothing with them. He allows young players to work their way up and make mistakes and still demands professionalism out of them. He pretty much does everything well except manage the pen IMO.

I'd bet any team we thought was an 83-85 win type team and they outperformed that expectation we'd all say the manager did a nice job. How many people were on the Giradi bandwagon? The guy never even got his team to .500 and needlessly burned out some very nice young pitcher's arms in the process. So far this year his Yankee team hasn't really done anything special yet I'm sure plenty of people would still prefer him to Yost. Even though he has a worse record with the Yankees than Yost does with the Brewers.

LaRussa last year had some here praising him for a losing season because if Ned was running tha team they'd have lost twice as many games. Nobody ever mentioned what LaRussa did to make him so good. Yet anyone who might like Yost and sees where the team is this year with the talent he has need to have a ready list of things that make us feel Ned has done an above average job.

[TooLiveBrew]

I don't want to just poop on your passionate post, Buc, but I do take issue with this:

 

He never throws a player under the bus publicly.

 

That's completely untrue.

 

 

Considering how long we suffered without a winning season It should be noted that he has been .500 or better two of the last three years (the only years it could reaosnably be expected of him considering where he started from).

 

So are we to divine that before the talent arrived Ned was a horrible horrible manager, and now that it's here, he's above-average or average? I think he was (at best) average prior to & average now overall. To try & credit Yost for the system's young rejuvenation arriving seems fruitless to me. W-L record for a manager is very inaccurate when trying to gauge manager 'talent.'

 

 

So far this year [Girardi's] Yankee team hasn't really done anything special yet I'm sure plenty of people would still prefer him to Yost.

 

I am not one of these people. Girardi is very average imho.

 

 

Yet anyone who might like Yost and sees where the team is this year with the talent he has need to have a ready list of things that make us feel Ned has done an above average job.

 

I don't think this is the case -- I think you provide a nice long list (even if I take issue with some of its details), but there are not all that many Yost backers who offer a whole lot more than, 'Who else would do better?' To be fair, there aren't a ton of Yost h8az that bring much more than, 'Who would do worse?'