Designated Yost Thread... Latest: No accountability and lack of urgency (part 4)

[Thurston Fluff]

The only argument I heard on Francona was his W-L record wasn't very good in Philly.

 

Just what are we supposed to base their performance on if not how well the team does with the talent they have?

If he has worse results with a similar type team then it stands to reason he is not as good. There is no way you could convince anyone that Ned had better talent in his ealry years in Milwaukee than Francona did in Philly yet he never had as bad a record as Francona did. If that isn't an idication of who is better I don't know what is.

[sheethead]

Show me an instance where Francona left an aging, gassed reliever in to lose a game in the 12th inning after: he barely escaped the previous inning, had loaded the bases with no outs in the current inning (2 runners walked back-to-back), and 3 available arms in the bullpen. Find something like this, and I will concede the argument on Ned Yost being just as good of a manager. What makes me sad at this point is I pretty much expect this type of in-game management from Yost. It was frustrating beyond all recognition. Still I was not surprised to see him, one foot on the dugout stairs thinking about the chances Dale Jr. has of winning the Sunday NASCAR race, do absolutely nothing.

[brewcrew00]

What three arms were available? I would think one could make the argument that Tavarez was the better choice than DiFilece, who simply put, doesn't belong on the roster. Mota I thought was unavailable for Saturday?

[sheethead]

Mota was warming up earlier in the game, hence available (Ned later claimed he planned on using Mota in the 16th after Julian got him 5 good innings or something like it). I would argue DiFilece was a better option than Tavarez in the 12th, but not the best option. Dillard was available, who should have pitched on Thursday in the 8th of a 4-run led day-game following a night game in which Mota pitched 2 innings, which subsequently made Mota not as available on Saturday. How's that for run-on.

[RU Rah Rah]

Mota was warming up earlier in the game, hence available (Ned later claimed he planned on using Mota in the 16th after Julian got him 5 good innings or something like it). I would argue DiFilece was a better option than Tavarez in the 12th, but not the best option. Dillard was available, who should have pitched on Thursday in the 8th of a 4-run led day-game following a night game in which Mota pitched 2 innings, which subsequently made Mota not as available on Saturday. How's that for run-on.

Thank you. I can't believe we're even arguing about this particular thing. Tavarez clearly was gassed, and, at that point, any option would have given the Brewers a better chance.

 

[lcbj68c]

Mota was warming up earlier in the game, hence available (Ned later claimed he planned on using Mota in the 16th after Julian got him 5 good innings or something like it). I would argue DiFilece was a better option than Tavarez in the 12th, but not the best option. Dillard was available, who should have pitched on Thursday in the 8th of a 4-run led day-game following a night game in which Mota pitched 2 innings, which subsequently made Mota not as available on Saturday. How's that for run-on.

If, come, maybe, howsoever, then, but, perhaps

[sheethead]

If, come, maybe, howsoever, then, but, perhaps

 

You forgot the period. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Bucky Rules]

I think that his game management is noticeably improved this year, but he still does too many things that piss me off for me to want him to stay on as manager.

So will every manager who puts on the uniform. That's part of the game. Managers make decisions and the whole world questions why they do it. Tony LaRussa is generally regarded as one of the best at in-game management (or just pick your favorite guy). Do you really believe that we wouldn't have 100 people (probably you included) sniping about his decisions, if he were here?

 

On the other hand... Mike Scoscia is a guy that - I would think - many of you would despise as a game manager. He loves the hit and run, over-uses the bunt, probably runs into more outs than a Yost team, etc. Yet his players love playing for him, they play the game as hard as any team out there, they're not overly talented (IMO), and they still win 90 games every year.

 

Pre-emptively saying this doesn't make the other side's argument any less valid.

I was not attempting to "pre-emptively make your argument less valid". By singling out that one sentence and ignoring the rest of the paragraph, you manage to lose all context to my comment. I was merely saying that we're going round and round with this. Each side has valid arguments. One side says he makes far too many in-game mistakes. The other says he doesn't make more (and probably actually makes fewer) than most managers, and he's got other qualities that more than make up for mistakes that he has made. It's all a matter of opinion. And it's very difficult to change someone's opinion.

The reality is this... if the Brewers don't win at least 85 games (or make the playoffs), my guess is that Ned will be gone. If that happens, I'm not going to cry the blues for him - because that's the way it works, and that's why they make a lot of money while they have the job. I'll welcome the new guy in, give him a chance, and won't scrutinize his every game decision. And we'll see if he can make a difference. If DM decides to keep him on, I'll be perfectly content with that as well because Ned Yost is not going to be the reason that this team does/doesn't win.

 

[Bucky Rules]

Mota was warming up earlier in the game, hence available

According to the TV guys, Mota was indeed up earlier. But, they said he really didn't do much and sat down pretty quickly. I didn't get the impression that he actually got anywhere near warmed up to enter the game.

[jazzytrav]

In the last couple pages we've had people use Francona and Pinnela as examples of how good managers do things compared to Ned. In both those instances I tried to show how both of them have shown no more genius than Ned. If that's the equivalent of saying "he's not that bad" then I guess I didn't make my point very well.

I wasn't speaking directly at you BC. I've actually found your arguments about Piniella and Francona to be fairly solid. I know I've mentioned in this thread that I like Piniella, but the more I watch him the less I like him.

 

That said, I was referring to many posts that I've seen that basically say we shouldn't fire him because we don't know if anyone else would be better. It's like sticking with a job that you don't like because it pays the bills, and you're afraid that if you quit you'll find another job that's even worse. It's not a denial of Yost's incompetence, but an unfortunate acceptance of average.

[Bucky Rules]

I know I've mentioned in this thread that I like Piniella, but the more I watch him the less I like him.

This actually illustrates an earlier point that I was trying to make. The more you scrutinize any manager - or any human being, for that matter - the more faults you are going to find.

[jazzytrav]

Since you don't know me and don't know how I evaluate people, I don't see how you can illustrate your point with that sentence.

 

I liked Piniella back when I was younger and was less knowledgeable about baseball. I saw his teams win and I saw him argue with the umps a lot and throw things, so somewhere in my mind I decided that I thought he was cool. That opinion just naturally carried with me until I was able to properly evaluate him. The more I learn about baseball, the less I like him as a manager.

[Bucky Rules]

Since you don't know me and don't know how I evaluate people, I don't see how you can illustrate your point with that sentence.

The "you" that I was referring to was people in general -- not "you" specifically. And my point is still valid -- even in your specific case. The more scrutiy you applied to Piniella, the more faults you found. The amount of change in the scrutiny you were applying vs what you are now applying is simply greater than what I had anticipated.

[sheethead]

According to the TV guys, Mota was indeed up earlier. But, they said he really didn't do much and sat down pretty quickly. I didn't get the impression that he actually got anywhere near warmed up to enter the game.

Link

Mota had pitched two innings in Houston on Wednesday and another on Thursday and Yost thought he needed another night off. Yost would have gone to Mota had the game made it to the 13th inning, but didn't want to use him beforehand.

 

"He was the last guy I was going to use," said Yostg[sic]. "I felt like he could use one more day off.

"I was trying to win this game. I don't think about tomorrow at all in that situation."

Tavarez had escaped a bases-loaded, one-out jam in the 11th and Yost hoped he'd get lucky again in the 12th.

 

What kills me is the last line from Yost, it doesn't make any sense at all.

[TooLiveBrew]

Just what are we supposed to base their performance on if not how well the team does with the talent they have?

 

Come on, Buc. You've had this debate so many times. It's the equivalent of using W-L to evaluate a pitcher.

 

 

"I felt like he could use one more day off.

 

...

 

"I was trying to win this game. I don't think about tomorrow at all in that situation."

 

 

WOW. There have been a lot of 'gems' to fall from his lips. This one, however, may trump them all.

'I was managing with tomorrow in mind. I never manage with tomorrow in mind.'

 

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