Designated Yost Thread... Latest: No accountability and lack of urgency (part 4)

[DougJones43]

This game is Exhibit A this season about just how clueless Ned Yost is about in-game decisions and managing his bullpen.

If this game is Exhibit A in your case against Yost, your case is pretty weak.

He has a point. Of all the dopey managerial blunders, this was probably more like Exhibit Q (which is pretty telling in it's own right).

 

[adambr2]

This game is Exhibit A this season about just how clueless Ned Yost is about in-game decisions and managing his bullpen.

If this game is Exhibit A in your case against Yost, your case is pretty weak.

Sorry, you're right. This is only about the 97th stupidest thing Yost has ever done with his bullpen.

 

[RU Rah Rah]

Although the stakes and circumstances were vastly different, I felt like I was watching Game 7 of the 2003 ALCS, when Grady Little left in Pedro. I was literally barking at the TV about how the pitcher obviously needed to come out.

 

And if Mota was the last option, why had he warmed up earlier?

[steve11]

Am I the only one (I know that statement is not true) that noticed two huge blunders by mr yost today?

 

Twice, there were runners on first, bottom of the order up, nobody out, Counsell up. Twice Yost decides not to sacrafice Kendall to second. Twice it badly back fires. One of the times, CC failed to get Kendall over, then he had McClung attempt (if you call it that) to sacrafice him over , and again nothing. McClung not a big hitter at all, but had a nice double earlier in the game. Correct me if you are wrong, but if you have the bottom of the order up, and you are in a tight game with the pitcher throwing well, dont you get the guy to second with less than two outs? In each case CC could have got him to second, and McClung and the Hurricane each would have shots to get Kendall in from 2nd.... instead Kendall didn't see second base at all ... let alone cross the plate! Just really bad game management IMHO. Correct me if I am off base here.. but it really hurt to watch this game today for a good part of it knowing there were a possible two runs (or chance at two more runs) that would never be cause of Nedly....

[jeffy]

Not a fan of a lot bunting, I'd pretty much only ever want the pitchers to bunt, so I would give Yost credit for not bunting too, too often. Bunting to bring up the pitcher would be a very foolish strategy.

 

I probably would not even have asked McClung to bunt today, considering that the guy following him has, so far, shown little ability to hit in the major leagues...unless the intention was to pinch hit, were the bunt successful.

 

In each case CC could have got him to second...sure a successful bunt could have, no guarantee though, and a hit could have gotten the runner to second or beyond with one less out.

[UndraftedFA]

Yeah, I don't think the people who hate Yost are even going to agree with you on all the bunting. I would guess there would have been another 3 pages to this thread if he would have, including me, a guy who feels Ned is at worst an average manager.

[jazzytrav]

I really don't care for the small ball approach. If anything, that's one of the few things that I appreciate about Yost. The only time I want to see bunting for sacrifice is by the pitcher. Besides that, I don't mind seeing Weeks and maybe Hart bunt for hits, but that's a completely different thing.

 

I guess I wouldn't have minded seeing Counsell try a drag bunt and at worst move the runner over, but I wouldn't want to see him trying an obvious sac bunt (squaring up early). Even in that case, I would venture a guess that drag bunts are up to the player in a similar manner as some stolen bases.

[MickeyDavis]

Another missed squeeze sign tonight. I guess that's on Sveum though.

Does any other coaching staff/manager make as many odd botches during a season, then chuckle about it after the game and say something like, "I had a mosquito bite and it itched!!" like it doesn't matter at all?

Turns out the Brewers don't even have a sign to acknowledge the squeeze.

 

So, should the Brewers start requiring the hitter to acknowledge the sign in some fashion?

"We might have to," third-base coach Dale Sveum said. "That's not a good sign to miss."

Yost said he didn't consider an acknowledgement by the hitter mandatory but admitted, "We might have to review that. We've got some signs (the hitter can use)."

 

 

 

 

[Fatter than Joey]

Turns out the Brewers don't even have a sign to acknowledge the squeeze.

 

Yeah -- I remember reading the first time it happened, the Brewers were one of the few teams that didn't have the hitter acknowledge.

 

Not having the batter acknowledge seems rather stupid to me. -- You don't want your batter swinging away with a vulnerable runner heading down the line.

[sheethead]

Not having the batter acknowledge seems rather stupid to me. -- You don't want your batter swinging away with a vulnerable runner heading down the line.

 

Exhibit BZ.

[Thurston Fluff]

Good managers like Pinella don't manage like that. When they have an opportunity to go for a win, they go for it. If they have to burn up an extra reliever to do so, they do it.

 

Pinella is very quickly burning up his best reliever as well. Marmol has played so much it would be a minor miracle if he'll still be capable of lifting his arm in August or September let alone be effective in the stretch run. If you want to give Pinella credit for being a good manager fine but his bullpen management would not be the place to start.

[trwi7]

Pinella is very quickly burning up his best reliever as well.

Well Nedly sure is using his best reliever sparingly. Oh wait.

 

Marmol 43 innings

Torres 40.1 innings

 

Marmol 706 pitches

Torres 631 pitches

[brewcrew00]

I still put my money down the stretch with the guy who has a history of high inning totals over his career. Not the young arm who I would think has the greater risk of "burning out."

[Thurston Fluff]

Marmal's career so far 06 - 77 IP, 07 69.1 IP in 59 games.

Torres career since 04 92 IP in 94 games, in 05 94.2 over 84 games, in 06 93.1 IP over 94 games. He had much less last eyar but that was the abnormal year so far in his career.

 

So even though Torres is the much more accomplished pitcher with a proven track record he still is on pace to pitch about 6 or so less innings and about 120 less pitches than Marmol. I'd pretty much have to say Ned is using his best pitcher better than Pinella is based on what you provided. Add in the fact that Ned has had to work around more injuries to his relievers than Pinnella has and it make sNed look even smarter by comparison.

[endaround]

The only reason Torres is seeing less work than Marmol is because the Brewers haven't won as many games as the Cubs.

[jazzytrav]

I'm not sure where the Torres v. Marmol argument can really go. Just because Torres has a "proven" track record of pitching a lot of innings, he also showed that after pitching a lot of innings his production drops off. You can't say that an overworked pitcher should be able to handle being overworked. It may be true, or it may be exactly the opposite.

[Thurston Fluff]

Since both have been used in close games late the signifcant factor in their usage isn't wins. It's close games. I don't think the Cubs have played more close games than the Brewers do. Is it that hard to look at their numbers and admit maybe some other manager might, just might, not be any better than Ned in this repsect? You don't even have to admit he's no better than Ned as a manager. Just that some other managers abuse or misuse their best releivers every bit as much as Ned gets accused of it. In that aspect one of the higest paid managers with a pretty good reputation in the league is no better, perhaps even worse, than Ned.

[TooLiveBrew]

some other managers abuse or misuse their best releivers every bit as much as Ned gets accused of it. In that aspect one of the higest paid managers with a pretty good reputation in the league is no better, perhaps even worse, than Ned.

 

Yeah, I think Piniella is vastly overrated in general. I certainly don't regard him as being better than Ned.

[Bucky Rules]

Is it that hard to look at their numbers and admit maybe some other manager might, just might, not be any better than Ned in this repsect?

you're asking for a lot there, BC. You're preaching to a crowd that believes that Daffy Duck would look like a mensa member next to Ned.

[jazzytrav]

At least in a press conference, I think Daffy would school Ned http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

I don't think it's too hard to say that there are worse managers than Ned. But I think you also have to admit that he leaves much to be desired. So does that mean we should settle for halfway-decent and cross our fingers every year?

[Bucky Rules]

So does that mean we should settle for halfway-decent and cross our fingers every year?

I don't want to get into a long, drawn out discussion on this again. Suffice it to say that I think there are other important aspects of managing a baseball time besides in-game management. Areas where he is better than "halfway-decent". I've detailed that before, though, and I'm not going to get back into that diatribe.

 

But even in in-game management, Yost detractors should at least be honest enough to admit that he is making far fewer decisions that angered many of you in the past. His use of the bullpen this season is noticably different. You can argue that during all of the close games early in '07 he burned up the bullpen in an effort to "win today" and worry about the rest tomorrow. He has seemingly gone thru great efforts this season to avoid that. He makes a point to attempt to rest guys for multiple days after pitching in back-to-back games (with the exception of the closer who he has still pitched whenever the situation warrants). We'll see if that leads to better results from a rested pen in August/Sept.

 

I'm sure you'll still find plenty of things to fire back about, so this discussion is pointless. Nobody is going to change anybody else's mind. You guys think he sucks. Some of us think he's a good manager. You think he constantly makes idiotic decisions. Some of us think he makes mostly sound decisions. You think game management is the most important aspect of being a manager. Some of us think it's over-rated. If/when the team is no longer willing to follow his leadership, that's when I'll get off the Ned bus. Until then, I'm more than fine with him driving it.

[jazzytrav]

But even in in-game management, Yost detractors should at least be honest enough to admit that he is making far fewer decisions that angered many of you in the past.

And I think you guys can look through the posts and note the several times that some of us have done just that. I think that his game management is noticeably improved this year, but he still does too many things that piss me off for me to want him to stay on as manager.

 

I'm sure you'll still find plenty of things to fire back about, so this discussion is pointless.

Pre-emptively saying this doesn't make the other side's argument any less valid.

 

Also, the reason I said the part that you quoted is because a common Yost defense lately has been "he's not that bad" and "there are worse managers out there." In my mind, I don't except that. If you think he's a good manager, then I leave you to your opinion, but I don't like hearing that it could be worse when it could also be better.

[logan82]

Bucky Rules wrote:

But even in in-game management, Yost detractors should at least be honest enough to admit that he is making far fewer decisions that angered many of you in the past. His use of the bullpen this season is noticably different. You can argue that during all of the close games early in '07 he burned up the bullpen in an effort to "win today" and worry about the rest tomorrow.

I think the bullpen was built a little better this year with more multi inning pitchers instead of a collection of one-and-dones. I think he has also gotten better, longer starts on a more consistent basis and that will also make pen management better. A bullpen is always going to look better the less often you have to go beyond the top 3-4 guys. Just like some managers that were pointed out last year as being good managers, I think the bullpen can make you look really good or bad as a manager.

[Thurston Fluff]

Also, the reason I said the part that you quoted is because a common Yost defense lately has been "he's not that bad" and "there are worse managers out there." In my mind, I don't except that. If you think he's a good manager, then I leave you to your opinion, but I don't like hearing that it could be worse when it could also be better.

 

 

In the last couple pages we've had people use Francona and Pinnela as examples of how good managers do things compared to Ned. In both those instances I tried to show how both of them have shown no more genius than Ned. If that's the equivalent of saying "he's not that bad" then I guess I didn't make my point very well.

To clarify, two guys who have been used as examples of great managers have shown themselves to either have no better results with similar teams or have shown themselves to be no better at particular parts of in game management over the course of a season than Ned. So I guess since people have told us who good managers are and I showed why I feel Ned is as good as them I'm not saying Ned is not that bad I'm saying if they are great managers so is Ned.

[sheethead]

In both those instances I tried to show how both of them have shown no more genius than Ned.

The only argument I heard on Francona was his W-L record wasn't very good in Philly. This doesn't show how he is less genius than Ned. I would never in a million lifetimes call Ned Yost a great manager. A great manager doesn't let what happened on 6/14 to occur without at least trying. Ned didn't even try to stop the bleeding. Tavarez bled out and Yost just sat there, didn't even call 911. Best I could ever see myself describing Ned Yost is "serviceable."