Designated Yost Thread... Latest: No accountability and lack of urgency (part 5)

[pretendastronaut]

This thread was almost on page 4!

I'll bump it with this choice comment;

Entering Tuesday's action, opposing relievers had worked 22 1/3 consecutive scoreless innings against the Brewers since the seventh inning on June 22 against the Orioles. In the first seven games of their current road trip, the Brewers scored 18 runs in innings 1-3, six runs in innings 4-6 and no runs in innings 7-9.

"It's coincidence more than anything else," manager Ned Yost said. "It's not like we get together and say, 'Let's only hit the starter, only score runs against the starter.' It's merely a coincidence."

That's a relief, for a second there I really believed they all got together and agreed to that!

[jazzytrav]

To be fair, if we want to bash Yost for lame statistical things, we should probably give him the benefit of the doubt when the press asks him about lame statistical things.

[endaround]

Yep, the fact that the local media rips itself to shreads if the Brewers score 6 runs but do it in the first 4 innings is one of the weirdest things ever. But again that is being lead by Bill Schroeder from the booth (Tack On Runs!). Same with our need for small ball was last year. And how the Brewers need to score more without the homerun.

 

I'll also defend Yost when he said Tom Haudricort didn't understand baseball when he thought the Brewers were "sluggish" in Atlanta. The fact that Tom doesn't know that Campillo has been awesome this year says all you need to know.

[Bucky Rules]

Yep, the fact that the local media rips itself to shreads if the Brewers score 6 runs but do it in the first 4 innings is one of the weirdest things ever. But again that is being lead by Bill Schroeder from the booth (Tack On Runs!). Same with our need for small ball was last year. And how the Brewers need to score more without the homerun.

Amen! The object is still to score runs, right? Does it matter when they come or how they come?

[brwrsfan]

Yes, the object is to score runs, and scoring 6-7 in a game should get us a victory on most nights. However, not being able to tack on runs is allowing other teams to climb back into games, which taxes our bullpen, not to mention maybe even the win. We just need to do a better job in putting teams away when we get the chance and not squandering easy chances at adding runs (Kapler last night on third with no outs and doesn't score).

 

It seemed that the Dbacks were ready to give up last night (double switching for Hudson in the 4th inning?!?!) but we let them hang around.

[Thurston Fluff]

They may not all get together and decide not to score but they sure do it effectively. It's one of those odd statistical quirks that appear without any rational explanation. But Ned's smart butt responses do get annoying. I like him as a manager and think he'd be interesting and friendly to talk to one on one but he really does need to work on his media relations.

[Bucky Rules]

It seemed that the Dbacks were ready to give up last night (double switching for Hudson in the 4th inning?!?!) but we let them hang around.

Actually, I'm glad you brought this up. What is up with that? Hudson out in the 4th... Drew out by the 7th. When Conor Jackson made the last out in the 7th, I was half-expecting him to get double-switched. I haven't paid that much attention to how Bob Melvin manages. But if that's the norm, I don't even want to think about the length of the "Designated Bob Melvin" thread, had we actually hired him instead of Yost.

Which begs the questions... do the D-Back (or other) fans scrutinize Melvin ( /their manager) in the same fashion that we scrutinize Yost? If not, is it because we're more passionate about the Brewers than fans of other teams? or more informed than many other fans (possibly partially due to a community web-site such as this one where the content is something more than superficial)? Is any of this a good thing? I don't know. But, I do know that there is a discernible change in several of Yost's in-game management decisions this season. Who knows? Maybe an 85-page thread screaming Yost-must-go is a contributing factor in those changes. Wouldn't that be something?

 

by the way... as marginal a difference that some decisions can make over the course of a season, it has been argued that there is a statistically right/wrong choice to make virtually every step of the way (within a game). Personally, I think it's a little more gray than some, BUT... let's accept that premise. Why is it that every bench coach in the game is some guy who played the game 20+ years ago that likely doesn't know the first thing about statistical analysis? Why wouldn't a GM insist on putting a stat guy in uniform to crunch probabilities (and even more importantly not leave the interpreting of these probabilities up to someone who is not an expert) as they are happening in the dugout? -- or maybe this is already being done, and I'm just not aware of it.

 

sorry for the multi-topical post, but I was just sort of thinking out loud, and kept going.

[naivin]

...(possibly partially due to a community web-site such as this one where the content is something more than superficial)? Is any of this a good thing? I don't know. But, I do know that there is a discernible change in several of Yost's in-game management decisions this season. Who knows? Maybe an 85-page thread screaming Yost-must-go is a contributing factor in those changes. Wouldn't that be something?

If Ned Yost would change his style, process, etc. due the the ramblings of the lunatic fringe (which lets face it, is the subset that makes up the very small percentage of Brewer fans the majority of those of us who hang out here falls into.), he should be fired immediately. I would follow that up immediately by saying I don't think there is any chance that is the case.

[naivin]

Why is it that every bench coach in the game is some guy who played the game 20+ years ago that likely doesn't know the first thing about statistical analysis? Why wouldn't a GM insist on putting a stat guy in uniform to crunch probabilities (and even more importantly not leave the interpreting of these probabilities up to someone who is not an expert) as they are happening in the dugout? -- or maybe this is already being done, and I'm just not aware of it.

See some of the comments by Yost, Melvin, etc. regarding the decision to bat Kendall 9th (and subsequently move him up to 8th). The stats guys are there (Not sure who exactly)and I would suggest they play a huge role in the Melvin-Yost administration.

[Bucky Rules]

If Ned Yost would change his style, process, etc. due the the ramblings of the lunatic fringe

Not necessarily due to... but maybe they're/we're a contributing factor. You scream loud enough, long enough, and then someone starts to listen/question what's going on. It's possible -- although I admit not likely. But there has definitely been a change, and it had to have originated somewhere. The more likely scenario is that DM had discussions with him in last season's post mortem and gave him some ideas to ponder on how to handle certain scenarios differently. The handling of the bullpen is the most noticeable change -- probably due to the realization that they were burnt out last year. I have to believe resting patterns and the effects on future results is a pretty easy study to complete for a major league operation.

[Bucky Rules]

See some of the comments by Yost, Melvin, etc. regarding the decision to bat Kendall 9th (and subsequently move him up to 8th). The stats guys are there (Not sure who exactly)and I would suggest they play a huge role in the Melvin-Yost administration.

I know they're there. And I know they pump a lot of information to guys that can use it. The pitcher in the 8th spot was suggested because the "stat guys" thought it would add about 30 runs over the course of the season (iirc). But, to my knowledge they're not in the dugout during games analyzing in-game situations. It seems to me someone like that could be useful, rather than relying on guys that wouldn't know a standard deviation from an STD to arrive at the proper conclusion. Yet, to my knowledge, nobody is doing this.

[naivin]

Not necessarily due to... but maybe they're/we're a contributing factor. You scream loud enough, long enough, and then someone starts to listen/question what's going on. It's possible -- although I admit not likely. But there has definitely been a change, and it had to have originated somewhere. The more likely scenario is that DM had discussions with him in last season's post mortem and gave him some ideas to ponder on how to handle certain scenarios differently. The handling of the bullpen is the most noticeable change -- probably due to the realization that they were burnt out last year. I have to believe resting patterns and the effects on future results is a pretty easy study to complete for a major league operation.

 

I completely disagree. Assuming there has been a change, and I think there is some possible validity to that, you're right that it was caused by Doug Melvin, but not because of anything he said, but because of the things he did. The personnel up and down the pitching staff simply cannot be compared to previous years. Last year and in previous years, the combination of that rotation (especially without Sheets) and that bullpen was frankly unmanageable. Doug Melvin obviously did his best to address that in the off season. This season, the rotation on the whole has performed better and gone deeper in games (sheets is still healthy - knock wood), and the bullpen simply has more guys that can be counted on to get outs, so Yost is not having to go back to the same couple gusy as early or often as in the past. Better players often translates into better managers.

[Bucky Rules]

Naivin -- we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I absolutely believe that Ned is handling the pen differently than he has in the past. He seems to have a schedule of off days for guys after they've pitched (or warmed up) in consecutive outings -- three days on, needs two days off (or something to that effect). He's pitching guys more than one inning. He's using his closer to get more than three outs. It's just different than what he's done in the past. Yes, the personnel is different -- though I'm not convinced better -- but, there's more to it than that.

[olliegjw]

While there may always be a correct decision statistically, it may always be the best choice. For one, the players are human beings. They may be dinged up, or injured, which would not produce the same results that the "statistics" suggest. Also, just because a decision may be better statistically, doesn't mean it has to be made, because there may be a more advantageous edge later in the game, with the same player.

[Thurston Fluff]

He seems to have a schedule of off days for guys after they've pitched (or warmed up) in consecutive outings -- three days on, needs two days off (or something to that effect).

 

He implemented that during the year after he saw some of his pitchers perform poorly even when they said they were good to go. I think this situation is directly related to Yost adjusting his thinking on the run so to speak. I see it as a sign he isn't as stubborn as he many times is made out to be. Though I think he's made out to be that way by his own inability to handle the media very well. With Ned look at the action not the word.

 

He's pitching guys more than one inning. He's using his closer to get more than three outs. It's just different than what he's done in the past. Yes, the personnel is different -- though I'm not convinced better -- but, there's more to it than that.

 

He has wanted guys who could go for more than one inning ever since he's been here. This is really the first time he's had that type of pen to work with. Melvin stated he was looking for guys who could go more than one inning and he did that. The personnel may not be better but perhaps more suited to Ned's way of managing. That in turn makes them better because they are being used to their strengths.

 

All in all the two biggest factors in his new approach are players that are more what Ned wants and he does have a different bench coach.

[Bucky Rules]

While there may always be a correct decision statistically, it may always be the best choice. For one, the players are human beings. They may be dinged up, or injured, which would not produce the same results that the "statistics" suggest. Also, just because a decision may be better statistically, doesn't mean it has to be made, because there may be a more advantageous edge later in the game, with the same player.

All of that is dead on. And it's a big reason that I despise having to defend Yost on a regular basis for in-game decisions. There's a ton of gray area that I don't think is given enough consideration. It just seems to me that Yost takes a lot of grief for not making the "statistically correct" decision, and then defending it in a manner that makes him look like he doesn't have an understanding of how to evaluate a situation statistically.

 

I'm wondering why the heck would any team leave that sort of analysis up to any coach currently in the dugout. Certainly they can add one more guy in the dugout to analyze situations and bring the manager up to speed of his options and the likely ramifications. That's sort of the proposed role of a bench coach. I just don't see the current crop of bench coaches as qualified to analyze things in this fashion.

 

It's just like any other line of work. An analyst is rarely the person that makes a decision, but often provides pertinent and timely information to those that do make the decisions. In MLB there doesn't appear to be an analyst there when the decisions are being made.

[logan82]

Yost definitely is not very articulate. He doesn't say what he means sometimes.

[lcbj68c]

Yost definitely is not very articulate. He doesn't say what he means sometimes.

I agree. Furthermore, I could care less what he says to the press. As long as he doesn't pull a "We are who we thought they were" "Come After Me, I'm a Man, I'm 40" or a rant similiar to the now-Fired Seattle Mariners coach, I dont blink an eye or take it with even a grain of salt.

[crewcrazy]

Yes, the object is to score runs, and scoring 6-7 in a game should get us a victory on most nights. However, not being able to tack on runs is allowing other teams to climb back into games, which taxes our bullpen, not to mention maybe even the win. We just need to do a better job in putting teams away when we get the chance and not squandering easy chances at adding runs (Kapler last night on third with no outs and doesn't score).

I don't think the problem is not tacking on runs -- I think the problem is giving up so many runs that no lead is safe. No one complains about not tacking on runs if they win 7-1 last night instead of 8-6, in my opinion.

 

[MickeyDavis]

Runners at second and third (winning run at second). Why don't you walk the batter to set up the force at home?

[RU Rah Rah]

"It's just one of those innings," Yost said after the game. So there you have it....

[JohnBriggs12]

Runners at second and third (winning run at second). Why don't you walk the batter to set up the force at home?

 

Absolutely. You also cannot bring the infield in with the winning run on second. In that situation, your best chance to win is to play for the tie. I know letting them tie the game there might have seemed like a loss but at least you have time to regroup. Once the ball starts rolling, Yost seems to be clueless on how to stop it.

[BrewCrewForever]

"It's just one of those innings," Yost said after the game. So there you have it....

Thanks Ned, it's all clear to me. That explains it perfect.

 

[tigerbrew]

Really hope Yost is gone along with his eight inning guy Mota right after this season is over.

[Bruce Ciskie]

I'm waiting for Ned to simply say "(Bleep) happens" and walk away from a press conference when something bad happens.