Designated Yost Thread... Latest: No accountability and lack of urgency (part 5)

[Bucky Rules]

I don't mind if he faces a righty between two lefties or something like that, but I don't he should be considered some kind of all-around great reliever.

I agree with that. If that's what Ned means by being "more than a situational lefty," then I'm fine with it. But, if he starts using him in close games with no lefties due up (except for emergencies, of course), I'd have a problem with that. Here again, though... I'd be more concerned with what he does, rather than what he says. He is almost always going to err on the side of being positive to protect/pump up his players in his comments to the media.

[Thurston Fluff]

As long as they slug under .400 I don't see the problem. If all they do against him in one inning of work is get a walk or base hit they'd have to string three of them together to get a run across. The odds of that is pretty slim considering how well he does with the lefties he'll face in between those righties. If he was giving up a lot of extra base hits along with those runners then maybe there would be more cause for concern. I don't really want him coming in with a runner at second to face a righty but to start an inning I don't really see it as a problem.

 

I don't mind if he faces a righty between two lefties or something like that, but I don't he should be considered some kind of all-around great reliever.

 

I think this is about how I feel about it. Even if he faced two righties and one lefty I'd be ok with it as long as it isn't middle of the order type righties.

At this point in time with the struggles of Mota and Riske just getting going after the injury I don't mind if he picks up some of the slack. He's not an all around great reliever but he is on a decent streak at the moment. Why not use him while he's hot with all the other problems in the pen at the moment?

[naivin]

I don't mind if he faces a righty between two lefties or something like that, but I don't he should be considered some kind of all-around great reliever.

I agree with that. If that's what Ned means by being "more than a situational lefty," then I'm fine with it. But, if he starts using him in close games with no lefties due up (except for emergencies, of course), I'd have a problem with that. Here again, though... I'd be more concerned with what he does, rather than what he says.

This is exactlt right, and frankly the criticism in this instance seems more than a bit contrived. Until he brings Shouse in to face Lee, Ramierez, and Soto, I'm not sure what the point of complaining about that comment is. Shouse has proven he can come in and give you an inning or two, or face a right hander or two in the right situation. Outside of a perhaps a couple instances where Ned may have had limited choices, its hard to say he has improperly used him at all.

[fondybrewfan]

I have completely given up on Ned being able to manage a bullpen:

"When we first got him (Shouse) everbosy told me he was a situational lefty and he might have been. He has proven to be more than a situational lefty."

 

Shouse's splits in Milwaukee:

 

2006: vs LHB .238/.319/.350 vs RHB .309/.422/.515

2007 vs. LHB .214/.258/.262 vs RHB .295/.352/.337

2008 vs. LHB .157/.157/.294 vs RHB .250/.358/..386

 

 

Is a .714 OPS against RH hitters really all that bad though? Without looking up the stats I would bet that OPS against is one of the best in the bullpen against right handed hitters He is insanely good against LH but he seems to be pretty good, just not dominant against righties.

[endaround]

Last year Yost started using Shouse against right handed hitters and predictably he got lit up. He can't get right handed hitters out, a OBP above .350 pretty much tells you that.

[Thurston Fluff]

Last year Yost started using Shouse against right handed hitters and predictably he got lit up. He can't get right handed hitters out, a OBP above .350 pretty much tells you that.

 

 

No it doesn't. It tells you he allows them to get to first more often than we'd like but that's about it. His OPS isn't that bad and he doesn't allow many extra base hits. If he faced nothing but right handers what are the odds he will allow three runners to reach base before they get three outs? In the worst case scenario he'd have to face nothing but right handed hitters while giving up those three hits before he gets three outs. How many teams would he face that could put up enough righties in a row to get three hits without first recording three outs? The Brewers are one of the few that could do that and he obviously doesn't ahve to worry about that.

The very numbers you posted show he can be trusted to get three outs before he gives up a run more often than not regardless of what side the hit from.

[TooLiveBrew]

No it doesn't. It tells you he allows them to get to first more often than we'd like but that's about it. His OPS isn't that bad and he doesn't allow many extra base hits.

 

It doesn't say that he 'doesn't allow ____', it says that he 'hasn't allowed ____'. I think if we trust that Shouse is going to keep his SLGA v. RH that low, we're going to be disappointed. Probably somewhere in-between the 2006 & '07/'08 stats is where the 'true talent' level lies. Besides, end's point on Shouse was that he's not good (& hasn't been good) at getting RH batters out -- I think a .350+ OBPA does tell you a bit about that. The point wasn't that Shouse gets crushed by righties. Just my opinon, though.

 

Fwiw, I watched a different MLB game this season (sorry, can't remember what team), and the color commentator was talking about that what makes a LOOGY like Shouse (Brian wasn't the announcer's example) effective is also what makes him vulnerable to righties. The term he used was a "one-plane slider"... meaning that the pitch's only break is left to right, with little to no vertical break. This action makes it very hard for LHB to keep their hands inside of the pitch & still make contact well with the bat; however, it also means the pitch glides right into the wheelhouse of most RHB. I know that's not exactly rocket science there, but it definitely helped clarify things a bit.

[fondybrewfan]

I guess that is what I was trying to say to, he gives up his fair share of hits/walks to righties but they have a lowsy .386 slugging % against him. So sure I suppose the other team full of righties could dink and dunk a run in every now and then but it doesn't appear that he gets hit hard against righties all to often

[logan82]

I guess that is what I was trying to say to, he gives up his fair share of hits/walks to righties but they have a lowsy .386 slugging % against him. So sure I suppose the other team full of righties could dink and dunk a run in every now and then but it doesn't appear that he gets hit hard against righties all to often

That might be the result of only facing below average righties most of the time.

 

I would be upset to see Shouse face righties in a close game unless it is one or two between a few lefties or to turn a switchy around to the bad side. Close games being the key as I have no problem with Shouse going out and saving the pen in a blowout. I don't think at this point we have seen Shouse used in situations he shouldn't be in.

[Thurston Fluff]

I think if we trust that Shouse is going to keep his SLGA v. RH that low, we're going to be disappointed. Probably somewhere in-between the 2006 & '07/'08 stats is where the 'true talent' level lies. Besides, end's point on Shouse was that he's not good (& hasn't been good) at getting RH batters out -- I think a .350+ OBPA does tell you a bit about that. The point wasn't that Shouse gets crushed by righties. Just my opinon, though.

 

I'm not saying he's great against RH as much as I'm saying he isn't horrible. If I'm going to take Ned's statement at his word then this comment

 

"When we first got him (Shouse) everybody told me he was a situational lefty and he might have been. He has proven to be more than a situational lefty."

 

Doesn't seem to say anything about him being dominant it just says over the time he's been here he has shown himself to be more than a true Loogy. He may not be good at getting them out but he is pretty decent at not letting them score. Maybe I view loogy differently than you do. I think true loogys get crushed by RH. Shouse has shown he can survive an inning unscored upon facing a couple RH along the way. He may let a few of them get on base but he doesn't allow them to score without stringing together an unusually high number of hits. That would be more than a true loogy IMO. I'm not saying put him in to face a RH with one out and a man on third. I don't think Ned was either. Just because he isn't the best option for that situation doesn't make him strictly a loogy.

 

 

If you look at his OPS from the last three years it was 937 in 06. That would have been the time when he was a true loogy like Ned said "...and he might have been..." In his last two years he has an OPS of 698 in 07 and so far this year is at 744. The middle range would be 790ish. If you weigh recent performance more heavily than that of three years ago (a time when he didn't face all that many righties so the numbers may be small sample distorted) it might be fairer to think he could end up closer to 780ish so you are right TLB he very well could be somewhere in that middle range. Still not all that bad considering his effectiveness vs LH mixed in with that.

[DougJones43]

Draw a faulty and stupid conclusion from a small sample, and then find out the hard way that it doesn't work (that parts yet to come if Shouse actually starts facing decent RH with regularity). Classic Ned.

[Thurston Fluff]

Draw a faulty and stupid conclusion from a small sample, and then find out the hard way that it doesn't work (that parts yet to come if Shouse actually starts facing decent RH with regularity). Classic Ned.

 

You're right. We can draw a lot better conclusions from Endaround's examples of how bad he is over the last three years with a whopping 17.1 IP in 06 vs RH, 24 IP in 07 and 10.2 this year. Maybe if we looked at his career of 129.1 ining vs RH and see he has done pretty much the same overall as he is this season. Way too high a BAA a WHIP of 1.79 with only 12 hr given up to RH in his career. Seems to me he has always let a lot of RH get on base and very few of them hit him hard. So why would you be overly worried if Shouse had to face a couple RH in the inning along with a LH or two? He may let too many of them get on base but he rarely makes it easy for them to score.

[TooLiveBrew]

We can draw a lot better conclusions from Endaround's examples of how bad he is over the last three years with a whopping 17.1 IP in 06 vs RH, 24 IP in 07 and 10.2 this year.

 

I think that WHIP & OBPA are far more important than 12 HR over 129 IP -- not a very good rate, but not horrid. Still just too few IP to tell anything from the counting stats, which is why I (personally) turn to the OBPA to see how good a pitcher has been in terms of getting batters out.

 

To be objective -- Shouse's career line v. RHP is .305/.390/.451/.841. That's not just 'not great' -- that's bad, especially the high OBP. The high OBP most certainly is making it a lot easier for runners to score, as is the SLGA. His line against lefties, on the other hand, is disgustingly good (.212/.266/.328/.594). A classic LOOGY or lefty-specialist.

 

I don't think Brian is doing anything much to limit how hard he's hit by RH batters aside from just not facing them all that often. The numbers end listed from '06-'08 are basically right in line with career norms, except that we should reasonably expect that SLGA v. RH to rise the more Shouse faces righties.

[Thurston Fluff]

TLB probably all true. His career is that of a loogy. Again, though, Ned said as much. But from what I've seen since he got here is he can face a RH or two without getting killed by them and get through an inning instead of having to get pulled and use two relievers for one inning. It may be a small difference and maybe I'm reading too much into small samples but I'm not overly worried if he faces a couple RH in a close game. They just don't hit him hard. Especially when a good LH is sandwiched between them or third up sort of situation. I think maybe what I call a loogy is a little different than what you do. To me it's a guy who just can't be expected to survive an inning when he has to face two or more RH hitters.

 

Maybe this isn't the right place for this discussion but when it comes to relievers, especially lefties, I'm less interested in on base as I am slugging %. I think that is the one place where you can live with a few base runners as long as they don't hit for much power. So they allow a few too many base runners to the off handed hitters. As long as they keep the ball in the park or off the walls they usually get three outs before they allow a run to cross. Perhaps someone will show me how wrong I am but if I have to chose between the two I'll take more runners vs higher slugging out of my relievers. Ok Russ or endaround go ahead and show the chart of how wrong I am.http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[TooLiveBrew]

But from what I've seen since he got here is he can face a RH or two without getting killed by them and get through an inning instead of having to get pulled and use two relievers for one inning. It may be a small difference and maybe I'm reading too much into small samples but I'm not overly worried if he faces a couple RH in a close game. They just don't hit him hard.

 

But a career SLGA of .451 isn't strong. In other words, RH do hit him pretty hard.

 

I agree with your general point (Shouse facing a righty btw. two lefties or a couple righties in an inning here and there isn't bad), just not how you arrive at it (Shouse's SLGA v. RH is not bad... bc imho it is).

[naivin]

Brewers are 81-81 in their last 162 games. I guess that must mean Ned has been an average manager during that stretch.

[Fatter than Joey]

Maybe this isn't the right place for this discussion but when it comes to relievers, especially lefties, I'm less interested in on base as I am slugging %.

 

The problem with this line of thinking is that a RP often inherits a runner, where a BB or single could be just as detrimental as a 2b or HR.

[Thurston Fluff]

The problem with this line of thinking is that a RP often inherits a runner, where a BB or single could be just as detrimental as a 2b or HR.

 

In a perfect world I'd want them to all be Mariano Rivera. But you do have a point about the high OBP guys. I guess maybe the better way of putting it would be if the pen is made up of guys who all do something well then everybody doesn't have to do everything well. With the role Shouse has I think it better to allow a few base runners vs RH than too much power to them.

 

 

TLB I pretty much concede your point about Shouse. You've made your arguement well and I'm man enough to admit it's better than mine. I still think trying to use a quote from Ned that Shouse is more than a strict loogy as evidence of how poorly he manages a bullpen is a little extreme. Shouse can reasonably be expected to get through an inning facing a couple RH along the way without getting scored upon. To me that is more than a loogy.

[endaround]

How about the fact that Shouse has faced more right handed hitters than left handed hitters this year (52 vs 54)? Or last year(90 vs 103)?

[naivin]

How about the fact that Shouse has faced more right handed hitters than left handed hitters this year (52 vs 54)? Or last year(90 vs 103)?

And? He has been as reliable as anybody out there, even facing that many RH hitters. The fact that he also appears to have a rubber arm is the reason he is called upon for an inning, or to face a right hander or two. again, when he is brought in to face Derrik, Lee, Aramis Ramierez, etc. when other options are available, it will be perfectly legitimate to criticize. Until then the usage of Shouse has been anything but a problem.

[TooLiveBrew]

TLB I pretty much concede your point about Shouse. You've made your arguement well and I'm man enough to admit it's better than mine.

 

Hey, I'm not out to 'win' or anything -- just discuss & hope I can learn from doing so. Your objectivity is a welcome change from much of the discussion lately. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

We're fortunate to have Shouse, so I'll do my best to leave the complaining out of it. Yost overuses a lefty specialist... just like many other managers. Imo it's just frustrating to have to wait for it to become 'ok' or 'accepted baseball truthiness' for a manager to think beyond, 'Gotta get my middle relievers, my 8th-inning guy, and my Closer!' Someday, hopefully soon, we will find a manager that isn't anchored down to the old baseball 'truthxioms'

[Bucky Rules]

How about the fact that Shouse has faced more right handed hitters than left handed hitters this year (52 vs 54)? Or last year(90 vs 103)?

 

Why does that concern you on the surface? I'd be much more concerned with how many close games that he came into without any LHBs due up. There are so many situations that could cause those numbers and it could still mean a poor decision was never made. What if a LHB was due up and PH for? What if a switch hitter was turned around? What if he came in to get some work in a blowout?

If anything, those numbers suggest that he actually is more than a LOOGY, because even though he's facing an equal amount of LHB and RHBs, his overall numbers are still very good.

 

Like I stated earlier... nobody wants to see him come in and face the heart of a RH order. But, until Yost actually uses him in that situation, lets not jump to conclusions and assume that he intends to do so because of one most-likely-innocent-pat-on-the-back for Shouse.

[logan82]

How many of the right handers were switch hitters or pinch hitters?

[Thurston Fluff]

How about the fact that Shouse has faced more right handed hitters than left handed hitters this year (52 vs 54)? Or last year(90 vs 103)?

 

Overall his numbers this year are 1.98 ERA, .204 BAA, 11 holds, 2.38 K/BB, 6.26 K/9. In 07 he had 3.02 ERA, 21 holds, 2.29 K/BB, 6.04 K/9, and .257 BAA.

 

That would be a sign that he has in fact been able to face as many RH as LH and still put up better than average numbers overall. If anything you've more or less proved just the opposite of Ned not knowing how to handle a bullpen. Yost has used a loogy so well that he has been able to use him successfully more than his abilities should allow.

 

Hey, I'm not out to 'win' or anything -- just discuss & hope I can learn from doing so. Your objectivity is a welcome change from much of the discussion lately.

 

Win might have been the wrong word. Convinced would have been a better choice. I will confess it was tough to admit though.http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[1992casey]

I'm curious to see if Ned explained yesterday's move that brought in Guillermo Mota to face Chipper Jones.

 

Bill Schroeder's initial explanation was, "Even though Chipper's stats favor him hitting left handed, you have to bring in your 8th inning guy to face him." IMO, that would suck.

 

Later in the AB, Bill said something about Chipper's injury making it hard to push off properly when batting left handed. That explanation makes perfect sense.