Designated Yost Thread... Latest: No accountability and lack of urgency (part 5)

[cwolf2012]

His fault or not, I'm still blaming him for the Jays 6 run inning and not giving him credit for the 7 runs we scored. It's only fair.

[logan82]

Given the number of people who post here, there is almost always going to be at least one poster who doesn't like something Yost has done in a game, but I doubt there is any one poster who doesn't like every move.

 

The problem I see is that many in the "fire Ned Yost" camp rarely come on and defend Yost when he does something they thought was right and many in the "extend Ned Yost" camp rarely come on and criticize when they think he did something wrong. This makes it very difficult to determine what any given poster thinks in any given situation and leads to blanket statements. It leads to one group constantly complaining about Yost and the other constantly defending with very few people doing both.

[Fatter than Joey]

If you're going to assign blame for his moves.

 

Why do we need to assign blame? Why can't we just say "it was a bad move, or it was a good move" and explain our thinking. Why can't we just dissect Yost's moves, agree disagree and then move on?

 

I don't see a Melvin ya or nay thread 80 pages long yet he is the one responsible for the bad choices Ned has to chose between.

 

If you start a Melvin yay or nay thread -- I am guaranteed to help to get the page count up to 80. I agree that DM should be fired along with Yost, and frankly a lot of the roster moves (TGJ in Fenway) irritate me more than anything Ned has done lately.

 

I just think we need to be able to talk about a pitching change -- working with the pitchers Ned has -- w/o talking about DM every single time.

 

If I said to you --

 

BUC, you have bases loaded 0 outs in a 5-4 game the Brewers are winning, who would you bring in from Tavarez, Dillard or DeFelice? -- It would be frustrating for me to hear you talk about how DM did a bad job getting Ned arms, instead of simply making a choice.

 

BUC -- you know I think you are a cool cat -- I am just saying this so perhaps we can cut out the same circular arguments every single night.

 

**********

 

Given the number of people who post here, there is almost always going to be at least one poster who doesn't like something Yost has done in a game, but I doubt there is any one poster who doesn't like every move.

 

Exactly, furthermore I think people are fairly consistent with what they like/dislike.

 

It leads to one group constantly complaining about Yost and the other constantly defending with very few people doing both.

 

I think if people just stick to discussing what other people actually type, instead of guessing what would have been typed in situations that never happened -- we will be ok...

[logan82]

Fatter than Joey wrote:

I think if people just stick to discussing what other people actually type, instead of guessing what would have been typed in situations that never happened -- we will be ok...

I think avoiding calling Yost his moves or the opinions of other posters ridiculous, stupid, idiotic etc. would also be a good idea. All stuff like that does is put the other person on the defensive. I went back a few pages and saw very little of this so I must be remembering stuff from the "Vent Thread" and that is not really a discussion thread.

 

I personally try to avoid Yost discussions except on a one on one basis. Key word is try.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

I personally try to avoid Yost discussions except on a one on one basis. Key word is try.

Yeah I think I have to start doing that as well. It seems like this has become more about stubbornness than rooting on the Brewers to win baseball games. I admit that I'm being stubborn about it too, but I like to encourage my team and it's components. Ned Yost manages my favorite baseball team so I wish him the best and let's see what happens from there. This now has officially been my last post in this thread.

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

The problem I see is that many in the "fire Ned Yost" camp rarely come on and defend Yost when he does something they thought was right and many in the "extend Ned Yost" camp rarely come on and criticize when they think he did something wrong. This makes it very difficult to determine what any given poster thinks in any given situation and leads to blanket statements. It leads to one group constantly complaining about Yost and the other constantly defending with very few people doing both.

 

Totally Agree. I've been and still am a fairly neutral party on Yost, but I would say last years anti-Yost crowd had some very rational points. I do think Yost has learned some things this year and specifically improved in a few areas. Maybe it's having Simba on the bench.

 

Granted, it's one game...but look at Wednesday's one run victory over the Jays. To me, the two main areas he's improved on were on display. One, being more aggressive on the basepaths. Hart and Cameron's aggressiveness on the basepaths got us 2 runs that were the difference. The windmill at third had a big role in that. While there will be times like Fielder being out by 30 feet where they are too aggressive, the work they did in Spring Training and through Sveum has contributed some extra runs this year at the margin.

 

Second, bullpen management. This can still be spotty at times as Ned gets a little stubborn with these 7-8-9 inning roles, but he has had a quicker hook this year. CV was struggling, in comes Shouse. Mota was struggling, in comes Torres for a 4 out save. Much better. Last year's Yost may have gotten through the 7th, but would have blown the 8th. A great deal of this may be his 'pen is fresher and he can be more flexible since the starters have been so good lately, but I see improvement. Last year's Yost would not have learned his lesson from a blowup like Mota had in Colorado, this year he seems to adjust...that's an improvement.

 

There have been so many managers over the years I might have said, "He stinks, but I'd love to have a beer with the guy". I find nothing that appealing about Yost. He seems arrogant in his pressers, he likes NASCAR and drinks 16 cups of coffee a day which may explain a great deal. Aside from the fact he played on the '82 team, I have no interest in having a beer with the guy, I just want him to manage the team well. IMO, he is doing a better job of that this year versus last.

[Bucky Rules]

Fatter than Joey wrote:

I think if people just stick to discussing what other people actually type, instead of guessing what would have been typed in situations that never happened -- we will be ok...

I think avoiding calling Yost his moves or the opinions of other posters ridiculous, stupid, idiotic etc. would also be a good idea. All stuff like that does is put the other person on the defensive. I went back a few pages and saw very little of this so I must be remembering stuff from the "Vent Thread" and that is not really a discussion thread.

Does "I'm not sure I can take anyone who defends the Tavarez in the 12th decision seriously" qualify? That's a not so thinly veiled attempt to call someone ridiculous, stupid, or idiotic.

Or how about starting a response with the ever-condescending --- "umm"? Now, I can be as condescending as anyone, but I'll attempt to leave the condescension at home unless somebody else plays that card first.

[Bucky Rules]

I think if people just stick to discussing what other people actually type, instead of guessing what would have been typed in situations that never happened -- we will be ok...

Sort of like somehow turning my use of the word every when describing the bias against Yost into a "straw-man" argument? When a bias exists, it prejudices every judgment they make. That's what a bias is. It doesn't necessarily go so far as to make them believe that a particular Yost decision is wrong, but it certainly will move people off the starting position of giving him the benefit of the doubt. The bias causes people to start from a position of skepticism (in some cases cynicism) instead of the position of the benefit of the doubt. Apparently, I was a little more clumsy in my positioning that argument the first time around. But, I really think the "straw-man" comment was a bit over the top. And I think anyone who isn't acting as the semantics police would recognize the point that was being made.

[RU Rah Rah]

Sorry to overgeneralize, but it seems to me that many Yost defenders (or maybe they are better classified as anti-anti-Yost folks?) take issue with the fact that we don't praise Ned enough for making the "right" moves, such as removing a reliever at the proper time. But, for me, that's just being minimally competent as a manager. I'm not going to throw the guy a parade for doing the obviously correct thing from time to time.

[Thurston Fluff]

Sorry to overgeneralize, but it seems to me that many Yost defenders (or maybe they are better classified as anti-anti-Yost folks?) take issue with the fact that we don't praise Ned enough for making the "right" moves,

 

Actually the problem I have is when someone thinks a decision is so bad when in fact he made one of the 6 of one 1/2 dozen of the other variety. The Tavarez in the 12th is a prime example. Difelice also sucked that game and Dillard has shown himself to be every bit as volatile as Tavarez out there hasn't he? I don't care if you don't give him credit for doing what is expected of him nearly as much as it bothers me when he gets lambasted for not winning a no win situation. Go ahead and criticize him all you want for using Mench against a nightie in a critical situation. He blew that and it was a dumb move. But there are a lot fewer of those situations than most anti Yost people would like to think. Though I'm sure you will disagree with me on that point.http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

[RU Rah Rah]

Though I'm sure you will disagree with me on that point.http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

There's no need to be personally uncivil this way.

 

[mark brouhard is number on]

Sorry to overgeneralize, but it seems to me that many Yost defenders (or maybe they are better classified as anti-anti-Yost folks?) take issue with the fact that we don't praise Ned enough for making the "right" moves, such as removing a reliever at the proper time. But, for me, that's just being minimally competent as a manager. I'm not going to throw the guy a parade for doing the obviously correct thing from time to time.

 

you don't have to throw him a parade for making the right moves any manager would make, but its a two way street then and you shouldn't berate him for making a bad move that all managers also make. that's what gets me riled up about the anti yost crowd. you are overly critical of all poor moves, but if a good move is made he should be expected to make that move. that's just not how the world works.

[lcbj68c]

Go ahead and criticize him all you want for using Mench against a nightie in a critical situation.

With all due respect, Mench should not be hitting against nighties...too distracting.

[Thurston Fluff]

There's no need to be personally uncivil this way.

 

What so uncivil about saying I'm sure you'll disagree with me on this point?

[RU Rah Rah]

There's no need to be personally uncivil this way.

 

What so uncivil about saying I'm sure you'll disagree with me on this point?

Because you're presuming to speak for me, and in a clearly negative way. It's inappropriate, and I would appreciate it if you'd refrain from doing it in the future.

I really object to the inference, which is, essentially: "You're so close-minded that I will never be able to persuade you. You'll just reflexively disagree." There's no need for that.

 

[Bucky Rules]

There's no need to be personally uncivil this way.

 

What so uncivil about saying I'm sure you'll disagree with me on this point?

Because you're presuming to speak for me, and in a clearly negative way. It's inappropriate, and I would appreciate it if you'd refrain from doing it in the future.

I really object to the inference, which is, essentially: "You're so close-minded that I will never be able to persuade you. You'll just reflexively disagree." There's no need for that.

 

 

Can we lose the feigned indignance? And if it isn't feigned, then maybe some of us need to take ourselves a bit less seriously. My God, he made the comment with a little winking smiley face attached. It's a gentle rib at worst. Get over it.

[Thurston Fluff]

How is it presuming to speak for you to say I'm sure you, as someone who claims to be a Anti-Yost somehow thinks he makes more mistakes as someone like me who likes Yost does? That would seem fairly obvious to most people I would think. Is it wrong? Do you think Yost makes more mistakes than most of us Yost supporters do? If not then why don't you like him? Personally I think you're being a little over sensitive on this but If you wish I'll just refrain from discussing this with you altogether since it appears to me you seem to get offended pretty easily.

[lcbj68c]

:crickets chirping:

[RU Rah Rah]

I don't think I'm being overly sensitive. I'm just trying to encourage people to be cordial, and to avoid the kind of personal attacks that infect other discussion boards.

[Thurston Fluff]

fair enough. Obviously my postings are not to your liking so I'll just avoid responding to yours and we'll all be happy.

[lcbj68c]

I still want to know about Mench hitting against nighties.

[Thurston Fluff]

I meant Knighties. He should never hit against anyone with body armor riding a horse. Despite the spelling error I thought that was pretty obvious.

[Bucky Rules]

I really object to the inference, which is, essentially: "You're so close-minded that I will never be able to persuade you. You'll just reflexively disagree." There's no need for that.

Just because you inferred that, doesn't mean that that's what was implied. So,

 

Fatter than Joey wrote:

I think if people just stick to discussing what other people actually type, instead of guessing what would have been typed in situations that never happened -- we will be ok...

[scrapiron]

Sorry to overgeneralize, but it seems to me that many Yost defenders (or maybe they are better classified as anti-anti-Yost folks?) take issue with the fact that we don't praise Ned enough for making the "right" moves, such as removing a reliever at the proper time. But, for me, that's just being minimally competent as a manager. I'm not going to throw the guy a parade for doing the obviously correct thing from time to time.

Wow, I can't think of anything so unreasonable and unfair.

 

I used to be an engineer at a small company where the owner was like that. After working our butts off and doing a good job on a difficult project, at our Monday meeting this was the conversation that was had in front of all the engineers at the company.

 

Prod manger: "Hey you guys kicked butt on that project, you all did a great job." he turns to the owner and smiles "Didn't they do an awesome job?"

 

Owner: "Why should I praise them for doing what I pay them to do?"

 

But you can bet that ANY mistake that we made, however small, resulted in a an earful from the owner. In the end all his engineers quit, and his business is struggling now.

 

I got an idea, take that attitude with everyone you meet from now on an see how far that gets you, especially your kids if you have any. Screaming at failure and not praising success doesn't make you tough or someone who demands accountability, it only makes you (forgive the language) an unreasonable, mean, backside of a horse.

 

With all the bad things that have happened to the Brewers so far this year, this team is 6 games over .500 and playing pretty good ball. Yost has done far more "right" than "wrong", yet many refuse to give him a pat on the back and say good job, which up until this point IMO is certainly warranted.

 

Personally, I won't praise Yost for what has happened so far this year, but I certainly won't be/haven't been screaming at every lose, every move I disagree with, or every decision that doesn't work. If this team collapses and fails, than Yost should be shown the door. If this team comes on and and makes the playoffs, he should be given an extension. Why not let the season play out and have things unfold until we know the direction the team will take before throwing a fit?

[Thurston Fluff]

If this team collapses and fails, than Yost should be shown the door.

 

You will not find me disagreeing with this at all. I've said all along I expected this team to be better than last years. If Ned couldn't win more with this team than last year (bad luck with injuries aside) he should be fired. I bet even Ned would agree with that. However since the team is doing better why criticize?