Designated Yost Thread... Latest: No accountability and lack of urgency (part 5)

[Bucky Rules]

I said that there is a pre-disposed bias on every decision. In other words... every move the guy makes is viewed with a skewed eye, and the assumption is that it's going to be the wrong decision.

So there are people here who question him giving Sheets the ball every fifth day?

 

 

 

 

If you consider that a move or a decision, then I stand corrected. Thank you for pointing that out. Why do I even waste my time on this board?

[viking188]

Okay, if you parse Buckys comments, then every move, may not be assumed as the wrong move. However; if one reads this rather lenghty designated Yost thread, and sees almost 80 pages with references to : Yost is an idiot/moron or tool. Yost should be replaced with a magic 8 ball/my dog/ or a Oijia board. Bucky is not as far off as some here are making it seem.

Just my two cents/and thats what it's worth.

[olliegjw]

I said that there is a pre-disposed bias on every decision. In other words... every move the guy makes is viewed with a skewed eye, and the assumption is that it's going to be the wrong decision.

So there are people here who question him giving Sheets the ball every fifth day?

 

 

 

 

Actually, yes there are. Some want Sheets to pitch every 5th day even if there is a day off, thereby pushing every other starter back a day (or skipping a starter). Personally, I think it's a horse apiece. You want to keep Sheets healthy, but you want him to pitch as much as possible.

[Hate those Rodents]

I was just thinking of Ned's lineup from opening day. This is assuming Cameron is eligible from day one. If he is, here's his lineup...

 

Weeks

Cameron

Fielder

Braun

Hall

Hart

Hardy

Sheets

Kendall

 

Today, only Weeks is in the spot Yost had him on opening day. And some, not me, disagree with him being there. But isn't it sad that Yost

1) thought of Cameron as a really good #2

2) thought Fielder would be his best #3 and Braun his best #4

3) thought Hall and not Hart should protect his cleanup batter

4) went with the idiotic pitcher hitting eighth

[lcbj68c]

I agree with Bucky. There are people out there that are pre-disposed to want to disagree with every move Ned Yost makes. Little things that go untalked about on other fan forums are debated here over 40 pages for two days. Things like do I use my 7th best reliever on two days rest with diarrhea or 8th best reliever as if it is the deciding factor in making the playoffs. I dont think he is saying that there are people that DO disagree with everything. But there are people that WANT TO disagree with everything. That they have a pre-disposition to it. I know die-hard fans of other teams, the devil rays for example and they couldn't care less to hang a loss in extra innings on the manager, because he used the 13th best pitcher instead of the 12th best pitcher. They realize the manager is between a rock and a hard place, take their loss in stride. But yet, with this manager and a certain group of pre-disposed people, the minute something so miniscule comes up, it's a new topic on brewerfan.net two minutes later. You can believe that this group of people don't exist, but it's true.

[endaround]

I was just thinking of Ned's lineup from opening day. This is assuming Cameron is eligible from day one. If he is, here's his lineup...

 

Weeks

Cameron

Fielder

Braun

Hall

Hart

Hardy

Sheets

Kendall

 

Today, only Weeks is in the spot Yost had him on opening day. And some, not me, disagree with him being there. But isn't it sad that Yost

1) thought of Cameron as a really good #2

2) thought Fielder would be his best #3 and Braun his best #4

3) thought Hall and not Hart should protect his cleanup batter

4) went with the idiotic pitcher hitting eighth

1 Cameron is still the best #2 hitter assuming Braun or Hart isn't moved there

2) It didn't make a difference

3) Yost treats Hart like an ugly stepchild at times

4) Yost abandoning it waas what is idiotic

 

[Bucky Rules]

Today, only Weeks is in the spot Yost had him on opening day. And some, not me, disagree with him being there. But isn't it sad that Yost

1) thought of Cameron as a really good #2

2) thought Fielder would be his best #3 and Braun his best #4

3) thought Hall and not Hart should protect his cleanup batter

4) went with the idiotic pitcher hitting eighth

Sad? No. In fact the only thing that I had any problem with on opening day was Hall hitting in front of Hart. But, I'm one of those guys that doesn't feel the order in which they bat makes a whole ton of difference. So, I wouldn't even say that I had a big problem with that. The rest of what you call sad, I find completely defensible - and have defended it on many occasions.

[sheethead]

But yet, with this manager and a certain group of pre-disposed people, the minute something so miniscule comes up, it's a new topic on brewerfan.net two minutes later. You can believe that this group of people don't exist, but it's true.

If you are referring to me being "pre-disposed," you couldn't be farther off. And frankly, I think you just don't get it.

[lcbj68c]

Nope, wasn't. Not every post is directed at you, picking on you, referring to you, replying to you, so come of it and enjoy yourself and the discussion.

[Bucky Rules]

If you are referring to me being "pre-disposed," you couldn't be farther off. And frankly, I think you just don't get it.

I've mentioned brilliant already. But I have apparently forgotten to characterize you as open minded. Sorry, my bad.

 

 

[Thurston Fluff]

It is amazing how Ned all of a sudden looks like a competent manager again now that we are winning. IMO a managers performance is 95% out of his control.

 

It is amazing how well he manages when at least a couple of his players do the job they are supposed to isn't it? I've said this before but I think the players are the ones who make the manager look good or bad. Yesterday he takes out Mota and Torres makes it look genius. Last season he would have had to take out Spurling and replace him with Turnbow in that situation.

 

As far as Bucky's comments go, semantics aside, the basic idea was not far off though overstated. The Tavarez criticism is more or less the norm. He was forced to chose from three bad choices and when it turns out bad it's his fault. No one blames injuries, Melvin for not finding a better option or Jack Z. for his failure to provide enough pitching prospects in the system. It has to be the fact that Ned chose bad option A instead of bad option B which, now that the game is over and it can't be proven wrong, would obviously have worked out so much better.

 

Before the "I said it before it happened argument," comes up Let me address that. Even if you did think something was the right move and Ned didn't make it doesn't mean your choice would have worked out any better. I have no doubt, if given three bad choices to chose from on a regular basis, you will chose wrong as often as Ned does. Primarily because, when there are no good choices there are no good moves to be made. Regardless of who makes them.

[sheethead]

Nope, wasn't. Not every post is directed at you, picking on you, referring to you, replying to you, so come of it and enjoy yourself and the discussion.

Haha, I see. Seemed like you were referring to a rather specific argument in your difficult-to-read post.

I know die-hard fans of other teams, the devil rays for example and they couldn't care less to hang a loss in extra innings on the manager, because he used the 13th best pitcher instead of the 12th best pitcher.

BTW, who are these devil rays you are referring to?

[cwolf2012]

Would any of the Yost "haters" actually disagreed with putting Torres in even if he had blown the game? I would have said "that sucks, but it was the right move." Objectivity is the key. Making the best possible decision, even if it's the lesser of two evils is by far the most important thing a manager does. If you can't even do that, you shouldn't be managing a baseball team.

[lcbj68c]

Haha, I see. Seemed like you were referring to a rather specific argument in your difficult-to-read post.

 

BTW, who are these devil rays you are referring to?

Not at all. I try not to make such a point to call somebody out specifically. I'm just saying it gets annoying to know that you can come in here two minutes after anything goes wrong (Yost using his 8th relief pitcher instead of 7th best relief pitcher) and have to waddle through the it's Yost fault. It seems there are a certain group of people are pre-disposed to watching a game, waiting to point out something and make it Yost's fault. I'm not putting you in that camp, in fact I dont know who's in that camp really, I dont keep a tally.

 

Having spent the past 11 years in Sarasota, it's been a habit to stop calling them devil rays, albeit I like the change.

[Fatter than Joey]

As far as Bucky's comments go, semantics aside, the basic idea was not far off though overstated.

 

It was a straw-man argument -- nothing more, nothing less.

 

No one blames injuries, Melvin for not finding a better option or Jack Z. for his failure to provide enough pitching prospects in the system.

 

I blame DM all the time for TGJ DHing in Fenway. I blamed DM for having a 14 man pitching staff... However, there has to be a point that in a game we can talk/argue/discuss how Ned plays the cards that he has. I want to discuss leaving Tavarez in for the 12th -- it doesn't have to be about determining blame in an ultimate sense -- I think we should always assume that DM shoulders some blame for crappy pitchers on the roster, and we should always blame crappy players for being crappy to some degree -- but why do we have to talk about DM every time we want to discuss whether Yost should have used pitcher A or B.

 

It has to be the fact that Ned chose bad option A instead of bad option B which, now that the game is over and it can't be proven wrong, would obviously have worked out so much better.

 

I think Ned was dumb for leaving crappy tired pitcher A in the game -- when fresh crappy pitcher B was available -- am I "right"? -- not necessarily, it's just what I would have done. I would like to discuss the whys and whynots of the situation, without talking about DM, how crappy Mota is, or straw men.

 

Would any of the Yost "haters" actually disagreed with putting Torres in even if he had blown the game?

 

I hate Ned Yost. I thought getting Torres was the smart thing to do regardless of the outcome.

[TooLiveBrew]

The 'Ned is blamed for anything he does' shtick is tired & soooooo 2007. It's absolutism like that that prevents discussion from carrying on smoothly, and I feel that would apply if it were an anti-Neddite saying, 'You all are just Ned lovers!'

[Thurston Fluff]

It was a straw-man argument -- nothing more, nothing less.

 

Since some of us think there is some truth to what he said I don't see how it can be a straw man argument. His biggest problem was using the word always.

 

but why do we have to talk about DM every time we want to discuss whether Yost should have used pitcher A or B.

 

If you're going to assign blame for his moves it would make sense to assign the blame to the person really responsible for it doesn't it? I don't see a Melvin ya or nay thread 80 pages long yet he is the one responsible for the bad choices Ned has to chose between. Blaming Ned for having to chose between DiFelise and Tavares is like blaming a firefighter for not getting to a fire in time when he was given a truck with three flat tires to use. I should mention just like Bucky shouldn't have used the word "all" I should not have said "no one".

[sheethead]

Would any of the Yost "haters" actually disagreed with putting Torres in even if he had blown the game?

 

Ned Yost is not a good manager. I was begging for him to replace Mota with Torres, and he did. For that I thanked Ned Yost in this very thread.

[sheethead]

Having spent the past 11 years in Sarasota, it's been a habit to stop calling them devil rays, albeit I like the change.

That would be very difficult for me too. I still call them the d-rays every once in a while.

[RU Rah Rah]

It was a straw-man argument -- nothing more, nothing less.

 

Since some of us think there is some truth to what he said I don't see how it can be a straw man argument. His biggest problem was using the word always.

 

But the word "always" is the very core of the problem. That's what makes the criticism so overblown.

TLB is right on the mark for mentioning the dangers of "absolutism."

[sheethead]

TLB is right on the mark for mentioning the dangers of "absolutism."

Many people suffer from this affliction. I really have no idea why I love this thread so much. I am banning myself for 3 days to reflect.

[TooLiveBrew]

Many people suffer from this affliction. I really have no idea why I love this thread so much. I am banning myself for 3 days to reflect.

 

With the Yost threads, sometimes I too just have to walk away for a while. Heck, sometimes from the forum itself. The one thing I can glean from how heated the debates can get is that we all have a very unhealthy obsession with the Brewers.

[TauPentaRei]

Call me crazy, but:

 

isn't a team that is 6 games over .500 with a -4 run differential being effectively managed and making the most out of opportunities?

[brewcrew00]

Call me crazy, but:

 

isn't a team that is 6 games over .500 with a -4 run differential being effectively managed and making the most out of opportunities?

I would think that's a pretty good statistic to point out.

 

Furthermore, even with today's unfortunate events, I think he made the right moves with the bullpen today. Simply a game where a few guys didn't produce down the stretch.

[TooLiveBrew]

Call me crazy, but:

 

isn't a team that is 6 games over .500 with a -4 run differential being effectively managed and making the most out of opportunities?

 

I don't see anything there that jumps out at me to say that -- luck is probably a much bigger role than the Mgr. I would say the same if we were 8 games under .500 with a +4 or so. I doubt the manager has much if any impact on runs scored/allowed & Pythag. Then again, I'm not a numbers guru, so I could be wrong.

 

Take today, for example -- was it Ned's fault that the Jays blew up for 6 in the 9th? No, and it wouldn't be his credit if it had been the Brewers that blew up for a 6-spot in one frame.