Designated Yost Thread... Latest: No accountability and lack of urgency (part 5)

[thunderbat30]

Food for thought--I am a HS baseball coach. We don't have an aknowledgment sign for the squeeze. You miss it. You suffer the consequences. My thought is that it is way to easy to pick up that type of communication. Honestly, to me it's just a philosophical point. Using one and not using one are both right.

[sheethead]

I don't see any good options there, so I am going to go for the groundball pitcher. If someone disagrees that is fine, but I don't think it is that hard to see the logic in the move. All 4 choice were a recipe for disaster.

 

Um, Tavarez shouldn't have started the inning in the first place. That is my point. Therefore the groundball argument does not make a counter argument to my point.

[TooLiveBrew]

Did you ever stop to think that both phrases related to the same game? Tavarez was obvious gassed, but he demonstrated that game both the good and bad. Bad: he was walking guys. Good: He's a goundball pitcher, and that is what they needed once the bases were full.

 

Yes, what sheethead said. I have no idea why you felt this applied to my bewilderment at Ned's double-speak.

[jeffy]

Food for thought--I am a HS baseball coach. We don't have an aknowledgment sign for the squeeze. My thought is that it is way to easy to pick up that type of communication.

I was wondering if that might be the reason for not having acknowlegement...that it may be too easy for the other team to "steal" the sign.

[liveforoctober]

Food for thought--I am a HS baseball coach. We don't have an aknowledgment sign for the squeeze. My thought is that it is way to easy to pick up that type of communication.

I was wondering if that might be the reason for not having acknowlegement...that it may be too easy for the other team to "steal" the sign.

My high school team (back when I played) started using an acknowledgment sign after they ran a suicide and the batter missed it. He lined a foul ball down the 3rd base line and hit the baserunner in the shoulder... the kid was out for a few weeks, but was about a foot from being dead. My coach decided that the "risk" of tipping off the suicide was worth making sure the baserunner lives...

And the risk of tipping the play isn't that great if you use something in the everyday game... fixing your batting gloves, removing your helmet and wiping the sweat from your forehead with you right sleeve, making a cross on home plate as you step back into the box... things that every batter does regardless...

 

[MickeyDavis]

During the broadcast Schroeder seemed to think that an acknowledgement sign was missed. He said the sign is usually something as simple as the batter tapping the bat twice on the plate. As liveforoctober said it's usually something so simple that the sign couldn't be stolen any more than any other sign in a game.

 

I would think at the very least that the sign would have been used after botching it once. The stakes are a little higher in MLB than high school.

[Bucky Rules]

1. Gassed Tavarez who at least gets strikeouts and ground balls, but walks too many.

2. Gassed Dillard. Probably a good choice if he didn't throw so many pitches the night before and get shelled.

3. Gassed Mota. Had the night off before, but was showing major signs of fatigue in his outing leading up to the night.

4. Defilice. Wasn't gassed, but just hasn't been all that good.

 

I don't see any good options there, so I am going to go for the groundball pitcher. If someone disagrees that is fine, but I don't think it is that hard to see the logic in the move. All 4 choice were a recipe for disaster.

If I'm Ned Yost, I'd be screaming for better options because none of those give me any confidence.

 

Um, Tavarez shouldn't have started the inning in the first place.

Um, Tavarez shouldn't have been on the roster in the first place. I suppose that's Ned's fault, too. Tavarez has been in the league for 1000 years, and has had maybe two or three years where he wasn't the equivalent of throwing nitro-methane on the fire. Considering the state of the bullpen (in terms of personnel), I think Ned has done a very good job of handling it this season. Other than Torres and Shouse (and more recently CV), he's rolling the dice.

[sheethead]

Um, Tavarez shouldn't have been on the roster in the first place. I suppose that's Ned's fault, too.

 

It's not Ned's fault he is on the roster. It is Ned's fault he was used in the 12th inning. That was all Ned, can't blame anyone else for that one. See the difference?

 

P.S. See DiFelice pitch last night? Better option than a gassed Tavarez.

[lcbj68c]

P.S. See DiFelice pitch last night? Better option than a gassed Tavarez.

 

With all due respect, we nor Ned Yost have the luxery of hindsight and I believe DeFelice was suckin before last nights outing.

[Bucky Rules]

P.S. See DiFelice pitch last night? Better option than a gassed Tavarez.

How he pitched last night is completely irrelevant - it's two days later and in a completely different situation. A) the game last night was a blow out, B) he had pitched two innings on Friday, so he was likely to be just as "gassed" as Tavarez who hadn't pitched in four days prior to the previous inning, C) DiFelice actually came in during that game and gave up a two run triple (that turned into a three run home-run on an error), D) DiFelice had given up 3 home runs in 8 IP prior to that point this season. You really liked your chances with him in there, huh?

 

Yes... I acknowledge that Taverez was a bad option. But, there were no good ones. I have no problem trying to buy an extra inning, and save your next bad option in the bullpen for another inning or another day.

[sheethead]

I acknowledge that Taverez was a bad option. But, there were no good ones.

I agree, but there were better ones.

I have no problem trying to buy an extra inning, and save your next bad option in the bullpen for another inning or another day.

I get the feeling you were not at the game, so this argument makes sense to you. I was at the game, and read Ned's comments following the game (trying to win tonight), so this argument does not make sense to me. Make sense?

[MickeyDavis]

It's a sad state of affairs when we have to debate someone like Tavarez. It's like when some Bucks fans were debating whether Royal Ivey would make a difference. Hopefully the Brewers already have his plane ticket bought and as soon as Riske is activated he's gone.

[MickeyDavis]

I get the feeling you were not at the game, so this argument makes sense to you. I was at the game, and read Ned's comments following the game (trying to win tonight), so this argument does not make sense to me. Make sense?

I don't see what being at the game vs. watching on TV has to do with it. I'll be at the game tonight. Does that mean my analysis and opinions will make more sense than someone who watches on TV?

[Diskono]

How he pitched last night is completely irrelevant - it's two days later and in a completely different situation. A) the game last night was a blow out, B) he had pitched two innings on Friday, so he was likely to be just as "gassed" as Tavarez who hadn't pitched in four days prior to the previous inning, C) DiFelice actually came in during that game and gave up a two run triple (that turned into a three run home-run on an error), D) DiFelice had given up 3 home runs in 8 IP prior to that point this season. You really liked your chances with him in there, huh?

 

Yes... I acknowledge that Taverez was a bad option. But, there were no good ones. I have no problem trying to buy an extra inning, and save your next bad option in the bullpen for another inning or another day.

There may not have been good options, but anything was better than Tavarez. After the 11th, it should have been a forgone conclusion that Tavarez will fail if left out for the 12th. DiFelice has been a starter for almost all of his career, so 2 IP the previous day shouldn't have been a big issue. The little league homerun that he did give up was, at least partially, a result of poor defending. And yes, 3 HR in 8 IP is a lot, but he had also allowed only 8 baserunners, which is quite good. Either way you look at it, 8 IP of stats really isn't worth much. He may not have been a great option, but he would have been better than nothing (Tavarez).

 

Look at it this way - say you were managing a team, and you had to pick between Dave Bush and David Manning for your rotation. You wouldn't pick Manning simply because Bush isn't very good, right? Same thing with DiFelice (or Dillard, Mota, etc) vs Tavarez. If the choices are bad vs horrible, I'll go with bad (though DiFelice is fine IMO).

 

[jeffy]

I'll be at the game tonight. Does that mean my analysis and opinions will make more sense than someone who watches on TV?

 

Apparently only to those who are also at the game, those who watch on TV will have different opinions that will make sense to them. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/ohwell.gif

[Diskono]

But...what if you were watching on a TV at Miller Park? Better yet, watching at Miller Park with Bob and Jim on headphones?

[Thurston Fluff]

There may not have been good options, but anything was better than Tavarez.

 

Would Winklesas, Hendrickson, or knuckleballer Fernandez been better options? No, over the last several years they've proven that they actually are not as good as Tavarez. DiFelise is the same as all of them. Career minor legue journeymen who stick around long enough to get a cup of coffee for an injury riddles team someday. After their brief moment in the sun, they are never heard from agian. That is not better than someone who has at least had some success. Even if he hasn't been good for a while and is insufferable as a person.

 

After the 11th, it should have been a forgone conclusion that Tavarez will fail if left out for the 12th.

 

It's not always a foregone conclusion that one bad inning means another one is invaribley going to follow. I think if you're honest with yourself you would admit you've seen pitchers look great one inning and terrible the next and vice versa on a fairly regular basis. I do agree it was a risky move but not because his last inning showed he obviously was going to implode but because, like most of our middle relievers at the moment, he's just not very good. That is not something Ned has control over though.

 

 

DiFelice has been a starter for almost all of his career, so 2 IP the previous day shouldn't have been a big issue.

 

Tavarez has been a starter as well and has plenty of experience going more than one innning in the pen. If there is any advantage it would go to the guy who has done it many times before. The fact that DiFelice has relatively little experience going back to back days could be a detriment not a benefit.

 

Buc, I don't mind arguing the facts and points, but IMHO its time for Startingcatcher to get a chance.

 

 

I was going to comment on this earlier and forgot. Good one Sheethead made me laugh. Thanks for the reminder TLB.

[sheethead]

I don't see what being at the game vs. watching on TV has to do with it. I'll be at the game tonight. Does that mean my analysis and opinions will make more sense than someone who watches on TV?

 

Obviously can't speak for everyone, but I feel more in tune and "involved" with the game when I am there in person. The reason why I said what I did was because I talked to many, many people after the game (Twins and Brewer fans alike), and the consensus was the same with every one... Tavarez should not have pitched in the 12th. Only here did I find people with the opinion that Tavarez was a fine choice to pitch that inning. I'm just curious how many defenders were at the game. The disappointment in the decision hits harder when at MP, imo.

 

As for analysis and opinion, I'm not sure I can take anyone who defends the Tavarez in the 12th decision seriously.

[sheethead]

It's not always a foregone conclusion that one bad inning means another one is invaribley going to follow.

 

Good point. However, keep in mind Tavarez struggled against the bottom of the order in the 11th and had the heart of the order coming up in the 12th.

 

If only they had opened the roof - Prince's shot would have gone over the fence, and 4 pages of Yost bashing would have been saved for another day.

[Bucky Rules]

As for analysis and opinion, I'm not sure I can take anyone who defends the Tavarez in the 12th decision seriously.

Well, it's good to see that we're dealing with someone with such an open mind.

 

Let me get this straight... you need to be at the game to form a valid opinion. And whether you were at the game or not, if you believe that every option that Yost had for the 12th was about equally as dreadful, then you shouldn't be taken seriously. Got it. Thanks.

[Bucky Rules]

Furthermore... you guys are killing me with this DiFelice stuff. The guy actually did appear in that game and got hammered by Cuddyer. What makes you think that he was going to do any better against Mauer and Morneau than he did against Cuddyer? DiFelice was very likely to have suffered a similar fate to Tavarez. He actually DID get in that game and got hit harder than anyone hit Tavarez. Yet, we're the ones that shouldn't be taken seriously.

[silversurferr]

Difelice and Tavarez are below average, stopgap pitchers. They would struggle on any team. A healthy Riske will take care of part of the problem. Stiil, pitching injuries happen to every team, every year. What alarms me is the lack of young minor league talent to step in and provide quality innings. Gallardo and Parra were great additions, and Villanueva was a very good addition last year, and this year, other than Dillard, there were no good arms added from the minors. Should we expect more good arms from the system each year? And if so, is it fair to bag on Yost for the failures of substandard talent? Very few managers could do better. The reason to fire Yost is not stupid decisions about Tavarez. The reason to fire Yost is to bring in a new person for the sake of change.

[TooLiveBrew]

The reason to fire Yost is not stupid decisions about Tavarez. The reason to fire Yost is to bring in a new person for the sake of change.

 

With all due respect, have you read through this thread? There are plenty of reasons people provide (on both sides of the debate) aside from the Tavarez 'incident'

[jeffy]

But...what if you were watching on a TV at Miller Park? Better yet, watching at Miller Park with Bob and Jim on headphones?

 

Don't do it, you'll end up arguing with yourself...

[jeffy]

The reason why I said what I did was because I talked to many, many people after the game (Twins and Brewer fans alike), and the consensus was the same with every one... Tavarez should not have pitched in the 12th. Only here did I find people with the opinion that Tavarez was a fine choice to pitch that inning.

 

I think it's more that some here would say there were no better choices available. I did not want to see Tavarez back out there (enven though I watched the game on TV http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif), but in retrospect, I don't know that the other options were any better. Clearly DeFelice did not do well when he did come in.