Designated Yost Thread... Latest: No accountability and lack of urgency (part 5)

[JohnBriggs12]

Yost has no excuse, but neither does Melvin. Melvin has bought the "OPS is all that matters" approach to building the team, while the Cubs have concentrated on OBP. We are seeing the fruits of that now.

 

Not sure that's a fair criticism of Melvin. The Brewers have guys who had been decent or better OBP guys (Weeks, Counsell, Cameron, Kendall), but they all are either in a season long slump (Weeks), over the hill (Cameron, Counsell), or a combination of over the hill and overused (Kendall). I'm sure Melvin would have liked to sign Fukudome (instead of Cameron) who's the only real OBP guy the Cubs added. The other guys improved their OBP this year.

 

It also doesn't explain the Brewer futility hitting with RISP.

[FVBrewerFan]

Yost has no excuse, but neither does Melvin. Melvin has bought the "OPS is all that matters" approach to building the team, while the Cubs have concentrated on OBP. We are seeing the fruits of that now.

Not sure that's a fair criticism of Melvin. The Brewers have guys who had been decent or better OBP guys (Weeks, Counsell, Cameron, Kendall), but they all are either in a season long slump (Weeks), over the hill (Cameron, Counsell), or a combination of over the hill and overused (Kendall). I'm sure Melvin would have liked to sign Fukudome (instead of Cameron) who's the only real OBP guy the Cubs added. The other guys improved their OBP this year.

 

It also doesn't explain the Brewer futility hitting with RISP.

I think it does. When you have a bunch of "swing for the fences" guys, that will happen. If you have a line-up of players with higer BA nad OBP, they will consistently hit with RISP. Melvin made a conscious choice on Cameron, when he already had the identical offensive player in Hall and Weeks. I'll take free swingers in Fielder and Braun, you just can't have a whole line-up like that.

 

With that said, I do think it's more about yost than Melvin, don't get me wrong. Virtually every player on this team is performing below expectations, and at some point doesn't the buck stop at Yost's feet?

[endaround]

As soon as you call Fielder a free swinger you've lost

[crewcrazy]

Yost has no excuse, but neither does Melvin. Melvin has bought the "OPS is all that matters" approach to building the team, while the Cubs have concentrated on OBP. We are seeing the fruits of that now.

I think a lot of GM's value OPS highly -- the differences come in when you start talking about which ones value SLG the most and which ones value OBP the most. I don't think it's fair to say that Melvin has completely neglected the OBP guys, since he has gotten a lot of guys with good walk rates (the problem is that while they have good to great walk rates, their BA is so low that the OBP is below average).

 

I do agree that I like what the Cubs have done with their lineup -- there's not an easy out, 1-8 (and 1-9 when Zambrano is pitching). While adding Fukudome was really their only high-OBP acquisition, all the stories coming out of Chicago say that Fukudome's patience has had a trickle-down effect on the rest of the team, and now everyone is taking walks. Aramis Ramirez is on pace to shatter his career high in walks, and guys like Ryan Theriot are flirting with a .400 OBP. When you get 1 or 2 guys on base every inning, you're going to score a ton of runs, especially when you have guys like Theriot and Fontenot and DeRosa that don't try to do too much. Those guys are always on base for guys like Soriano, Ramirez, and Soto, and it seems like they never hit a solo HR. In past years without Fukudome preaching patience, the Cubs were a bunch of free swingers that were very inconsistent offensively (I still remember Turnbow always making Derrek Lee looking silly, even if Turnbow didn't have his control).

[FVBrewerFan]

Not as much as Cameron and Hall, but 86 SO is free swinging in my book.

[TooLiveBrew]

You have to understand your roster and use it to the best advantage each game.

 

This is from joepepsi's post (#22) in the Skaalen thread. I just felt it fits so appropriately here. I genuinely appreciate that Yost wants to try everything he can to help the Brewers win. Unfortunately, at this point it's abundantly clear that, not only does he oftentimes not understand what these things are, but he just overthinks & out-thinks himself. I guarantee you there was some wacky 'reason' why Craig Counsell started G.4 yesterday, but not one that makes any logical, objective sense.

 

Ned --- KEEP IT SIMPLE, STUPID

[endaround]

He started because Yost viewed him as an OBP guy. At least that what came from his morning press conference before the game. And that's why he batted 2nd to boot. Now why Counsell is an OBP guy when he hasn't had a decent OBP since 2005 is well a mystery.

[TooLiveBrew]

Choppers to the right side of the IF = OBP

 

Man, are you stupid or something?!

[orca1963]

Yup. I just wish he could come out and admit his mistakes. I wish he would just say "I haven't managed under these kinds of conditions and I'm learning the hard way". "I'm inexperienced in these things". Or something to that effect.

 

Leaders do not admit mistakes if they wish to continue to be leaders. They must admit it to themselves, be their own worst critic, but I sincerely think admitting your shortcomings means you do not have the same authority to make those who follow you do so to the best of their abilities. They now start to question you and not execute as well as they should because now your own self doubt becomes theirs. Leaders have to have followers who do what they ask to the fullest of their abilities no questions asked. The best way to do that is to not to question yourself in front of them.

 

For the record I will not defend Yost's move to hit and run because I think it was a mistake. It's one of a thousand poor decisions made by managers everywhere every year that worked out as well as it was conceived.

 

Sometimes I wish we had a strategic decisions thread instead of always coming to the Yost thread with these debates. Strategy, sadly, has become synonymous with being a poor manager. That tends to belittle the other, IMO, more important aspect of the job. I think Ned is very average at that part of managing yet think he's an excellent manager.

In reference to the "leaders do not admit their mistakes" comment, I must respectfully disagree. I have worked for men like this this a few times in my life. When they do not acknowledge mistakes they have zero credibility. People--for the most part--are not fooled by those who simply don't admit they were wrong, especially when it is obvious. This is not an indictment of Yost as a manager because I think he has made some great moves too.

 

If you try something and it doesn't work, you are wrong--regardless of your logic for doing it--which may have had incredible validity at the time. People will tend to see the mistake, hear someone try to spin it, and wonder why the person can't see reality. (Evidenced by the many anti-Yost comments here) That doesn't typically make one wish to follow that person. A better approach would be to lay out your logic for what you did, admit it didn't work and move on learning from what was unsuccesful.

I will agree that if you are admitting your mistakes and appear to be very unsure of yourself it will not inspire confidence. You can be confident in your abilities while still showing you are "teachable".

 

We don't know if Yost admits his mistakes behind closed doors, my guess is he does and that is in fact the reason why his team is apparently loyal to him.

 

[Thurston Fluff]

It pains me to bring this back up to the front page but I think Orca has made an interesting point. What is the best way to handle being wrong?

 

Orc makes some very good points about spin and credibility. But if I may there are some things to dissect.

 

If you try something and it doesn't work, you are wrong--regardless of your logic for doing it--which may have had incredible validity at the time.

 

I don't think wrong and failure are the same thing in baseball. It is not wrong to have Prince swing away with a man on first and nobody out behind by a run in the 9th even if he fails to move the man over. He could have failed to bunt him over as easily as he failed by swinging. If there are no options that don't have the potential for failure and an option has to be chosen then it cannot be wrong to make a choice. You are worng only if you make a poor choice or one for a poor reason.

 

When they do not acknowledge mistakes they have zero credibility. People--for the most part--are not fooled by those who simply don't admit they were wrong, especially when it is obvious.

 

when one is confronted by better logic one should admit it. So touche. You have a good point. With more thought on the subject I agree explaining why you did something and admitting it was a mistake can be useful. I do think it can be bad in some instances or to the wrong type of person so I'm not willing to do a complete turnaround but I do concede there are times a person even a leader has to do so.

[Postseason2006]

Rickie Weeks still stinking up the joint and getting the "job" un-done.

[tigerbrew]

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll129/tigerbrew/NedYostSuck.jpg

Why on earth is Yost still around? Fire him already.

 

[orca1963]

It pains me to bring this back up to the front page but I think Orca has made an interesting point. What is the best way to handle being wrong?

 

Orc makes some very good points about spin and credibility. But if I may there are some things to dissect.

 

If you try something and it doesn't work, you are wrong--regardless of your logic for doing it--which may have had incredible validity at the time.

 

I don't think wrong and failure are the same thing in baseball. It is not wrong to have Prince swing away with a man on first and nobody out behind by a run in the 9th even if he fails to move the man over. He could have failed to bunt him over as easily as he failed by swinging. If there are no options that don't have the potential for failure and an option has to be chosen then it cannot be wrong to make a choice. You are worng only if you make a poor choice or one for a poor reason.

 

When they do not acknowledge mistakes they have zero credibility. People--for the most part--are not fooled by those who simply don't admit they were wrong, especially when it is obvious.

 

when one is confronted by better logic one should admit it. So touche. You have a good point. With more thought on the subject I agree explaining why you did something and admitting it was a mistake can be useful. I do think it can be bad in some instances or to the wrong type of person so I'm not willing to do a complete turnaround but I do concede there are times a person even a leader has to do so.

 

Excellent points, and in reading yours and re-reading mine I must admit you actually said it better.

[fondybrewfan]

As soon as you call Fielder a free swinger you've lost

Oh the irony.

[TooLiveBrew]

From TH's blog:

 

Here is the lineup for the Brewers' tonight:

 

2B Ray Durham

SS J.J. Hardy

LF Ryan Braun

1B Prince Fielder

RF Corey Hart

3B Craig Counsell

CF Mike Cameron

C Jason Kendall

RHP Dave Bush

 

Counsell. At 3B. Batting 6th.

 

 

My silent rage is building, and has been for some time now with Ned Yost. I've gone out of my way to be more fair with him this season, but my fuse is about to blow.

 

Also, TH, learn how to punctuate. Its not like were idiots to! It'd be nice to see a WRITER do so correctly. Yes, I know this is a blip on the radar screen... just a pet peeve.

[nate82]

From TH's blog:

 

Here is the lineup for the Brewers' tonight:

 

2B Ray Durham

SS J.J. Hardy

LF Ryan Braun

1B Prince Fielder

RF Corey Hart

3B Craig Counsell

CF Mike Cameron

C Jason Kendall

RHP Dave Bush

 

Counsell. At 3B. Batting 6th.

Why is Counsell starting at 3B? If anything he should be playing for Hardy. Branyan or Hall would be a better option right now than Counsell at 3B.

 

[afeter]

My word, counsell should never bat sixth. Cams HR from the 7 spot is proof enough of that. Why in the world is Brayan not getting any starts. The only man who could tame russells power was Ned. Glad to see kendalls hot stick in the lineup again as well. I am sure i wasn't the only one with more faith in parra than kendall last night. Well done skip!

[bklynbrewcrew]

So now Counsell is Yosts latest pet. How in the world has Counsell nudged Branyan out of the lineup and why would he ever bat 6th. Of course Kendall who cant hit to save his life at this point still has to play each and every day. We have so many automatic outs in the lineup at this point that I just dont see how we are going to consistently score any runs. Seriously what other team in baseball would platoon Counsell over Branyan and hit him 6th in the lineup ever.

[endaround]

Yost must not want to disrupt that winning feeling Counsell at 3B has brought the past two games.

[afeter]

So now Counsell is Yosts latest pet. How in the world has Counsell nudged Barnyan out of the lineup and why would he ever bat 6th. Of course Kendall who cant hit to save his life at this point still has to play each and every day. We have so many automatic outs in the lineup at this point that I just dont see how we are going to consistently score any runs. Seriously what other team in baseball would platoon Counsell over Branyan and hit him 6th in the lineup ever.

none, becasue its insane.

[logan82]

It's not just Counsell over Branyan, it has been Hall over Branyan quite a bit also. Branyan has just not gotten much playing time for a while now. It is almost as if Yost doesn't want him on the team. It makes no sense unless Branyan has been nursing some sort of injury over the last month.

[endaround]

The one thing you can say about Counsell hitting 6th is at least he's not hitting 2nd!

 

If Branyan's injured DL him. If he's healthy, play him.

 

Hell its teh Reds, Hall can play against anyone they throw out there! It takes real talent to pick the worst option three days in a row.

[fondybrewfan]

Apparently Ned feels that Branyan needs to stay in the dugout the thwart any potential incidents. That is the only reason I can come up with for why Counsell is playing over Branyan latey. Branyan is probably in the doghouse for some reason. Or this could be the most screwed up platoon ever with Hall playing against left handed pitchers Monday-Wednesday, Branyan playing against righties only at home when the temperature is between 80-90 degrees, and then Counsell is left to play the remaining games.

[endaround]

I half think its because Yost feels he has to have a left handed power threat on the bench for late game situations. And if that's the case.....

 

EDIT:And this is why a baseball savy press corp would be nice. But since the beat reporters think Branyan's a scrub they won't ask why he's not in there.

[nate82]

It's not just Counsell over Branyan, it has been Hall over Branyan quite a bit also. Branyan has just not gotten much playing time for a while now. It is almost as if Yost doesn't want him on the team. It makes no sense unless Branyan has been nursing some sort of injury over the last month.

Hall started 2 games against the Cubs and 1 game against the Braves. Branyan started 1 game against the Cubs and 1 game against the Braves. While Counsell has started 1 against the Cubs and 2 against the Braves. Only one of the starts by Counsell was at SS. Counsell shouldn't be in the lineup at all unless he is replacing Weeks or Hardy. I would rather see Counsell taking a start from Hardy while he is cold than taking one from Hall or Branyan. Assuming its a right handed pitcher it will be taking a start from Branyan.