Designated Yost Thread... Latest: No accountability and lack of urgency (part 5)

[fondybrewfan]

"Was Brewers manager Ned Yost asleep throughout the Astros' entire seven-run inning vs. Jeff Suppan on Sunday?" That is a direct quote from Jon Heymans si.com article.

I don't think his coffee drinking habit would allow him to fall asleep, it could however be completely frying his brain.

[JohnBriggs12]

I don't buy the saving the bullpen for the Chicago series. The pen has had very limited action since the All Star break. Nobody has been overworked.

 

The one advantage of carrying a 6th starter essentially is just that situation. If McClung is good enough to start 50% of the time, he's being wasted being used to mopup and that's what he was reduced to after Ned let Suppan get the game out of hand. I would not have let Suppan face Berkman in that inning with one out and 4 runs already in, much less go 3 more hitters and let him face Blum.

 

If that's the kind of poor decision making we have to look forward to in the pressure packed final two months, we are in trouble.

[sgtcluels]

Yost sacrificed Soup, and we start the Cubs series with a somewhat fresh bullpen. Not as crazy as some are making it out to be and certainly not a Yosting.

Because our BP has been so over taxed recently. Going into the Cubs series, we have CC followed by Sheets. The chances of us using a long man for the next few days is pretty low. Yost is supposed to be managing to win this game, not the Cubs series. Everyone is talking about the Cubs series.. Cubs series. Huge series for us, but every game counts. Look at last year, 2 games out. 2 games.. this could be ONE of those two games.

 

[Postseason2006]

Taxed? From CC's 3 complete games or Parra getting to the 7th in every start or Sheets to the 8th?

 

Yosted and the Yostenite's unite.

[TooLiveBrew]

So what if Suppan was "one pitch" from getting out of it, he proved that inning that that "one pitch" was not working out so well.

 

Another classic lesson from 'Ned's School of Managing for What You Hope Happens'!

[Thurston Fluff]

If the Brewers won half the games this thread accused Ned of losing they would have 80 wins now. Either Ned is making the 27 'Yankees look like the 02 Brewers, all managers are responsible for most of their team's losses or Ned really isn't at fault nearly as often as reported in this thread. I guess each fan has to determine on his or her own if we really are one of the best teams ever assembled being held back by an incompetent manager or if the blame game has become a bit silly.

 

Whichever it is at this point I don't really care anymore. My own opinion at this point blaming Ned is more ritual than reality.

[Postseason2006]

Why is it so hard for someone to answer why McClung was up if Ned had no intention of using him? That is the one question I had for the Yost defenders especially after Blum already homering against him. You can't replace bad logic with worse logic.

[sgtcluels]

Taxed? From CC's 3 complete games or Parra getting to the 7th in every start or Sheets to the 8th?

 

Yosted and the Yostenite's unite.

I forgot the blue font...

 

[mark brouhard is number on]

If the Brewers won half the games this thread accused Ned of losing they would have 80 wins now. Either Ned is making the 27 'Yankees look like the 02 Brewers, all managers are responsible for most of their team's losses or Ned really isn't at fault nearly as often as reported in this thread. I guess each fan has to determine on his or her own if we really are one of the best teams ever assembled being held back by an incompetent manager or if the blame game has become a bit silly.

 

Whichever it is at this point I don't really care anymore. My own opinion at this point blaming Ned is more ritual than reality.

perfect post, couldn't agree more. although I was hoping he would take Suppan out, these things happen every year to every manager in the league, so I understand. It's too bad there is not a perfect manager out there who makes perfect decisions every game.

[Thurston Fluff]

Why is it so hard for someone to answer why McClung was up if Ned had no intention of using him? That is the one question I had for the Yost defenders especially after Blum already homering against him. You can't replace bad logic with worse logic.

 

 

Since McClung did pitch two innings Ned obviously did intend to use him. He was going to use him sometime in the game and it only made sense to get him going in the event Soup just plain old lost it. Keep in mind Soup was really only a pitch away. I know, sounds stupid since he didn't make that pitch but he also came in and pitched another inning after that with no further damage done. While he was willing to get McClung up then he may not have wanted to use McClung there if at all possible. If McClung is called in and the Brewers get a rally going the next inning then they would most likely have to pinch hit for McClung. That means we get one inning out of him instead of the two and a third reliever has to get used. It should also be noted McClung didn't exactly shut down the Astros when he did come in. If Soup is better than McClung and he wasn't exactly struggling earlier in the game why not give the better of the two pitchers the chance to get out of the inning? It didn't work out because Soup had a blow up inning. Several things contributed to that. Some of it was poor pitches at the wrong time. A couple bad pitches can make the outing look real bad but it's different than the type of outing where the pitcher really struggles every inning can't find the strike zone and is giving up runs each inning or getting real lucky that a few hard hit balls got caught. If Soup had been really struggling to find the zone all day and the 8 runs were more a sign of how bad he was than simply a few bad pitches I'd think differently about him staying in. when a guy throws 64 of his 91 pitches for strikes his control was at most off just a little. Unfortunately every time he missed his spot it got hit hard and not at people.

 

Before I forget once again I would not have minded if Soup came out earlier. For me it's less about what I would have done and more seeing there are reasons for everything. I'm not going to blame the manager for not doing what I thought he should have as long as I can see some sort of logic in the move. I guess I'm not defending the move as much as I am the idea that there may be more than one logical move to be made.

[fondybrewfan]

Alright who was it?

 

Yost supporter starts fire in apartment

Talk about Brewers fever.

 

A Franklin man took his enthusiasm for the surging National Leaguers to a new -- albeit dangerous level.

 

The 21-year-old, a resident of the 3300 block of West College Avenue, became upset Friday night about a newspaper article that was critical of Milwaukee Brewers manager Ned Yost.

 

Disgusted, the man then set the article ablaze. Unfortunately, other newspapers in his apartment also caught fire, causing $500 damage to carpeting but no other destruction.

 

Not only does he need some new carpeting, but the man also was arrested by Franklin police for negligent handling of burning materials, a municipal ordinance violation.

 

After being booked at the police station, the man was released to the custody of his grandfather.

 

There's no word on what newspaper the man was reading or what exactly got him hot under the collar.

[FVBrewerFan]

If the Brewers won half the games this thread accused Ned of losing they would have 80 wins now. Either Ned is making the 27 'Yankees look like the 02 Brewers, all managers are responsible for most of their team's losses or Ned really isn't at fault nearly as often as reported in this thread. I guess each fan has to determine on his or her own if we really are one of the best teams ever assembled being held back by an incompetent manager or if the blame game has become a bit silly.

 

Whichever it is at this point I don't really care anymore. My own opinion at this point blaming Ned is more ritual than reality.

Nobody is saying the Brewers would have won this game, or any of the others where Ned made questionable decisions. A manager's job is to put them in the best position to win the game. Some decisions are more questionable than others. What hurts Ned the worst is when his explanations don't make sense. He didn't save the bullpen, he used McClung and Shouse anyhow. McClung was up early, meaning he had every intention of using him. Who knows, maybe McClung would have only added gas to the fire- no guarantee they win the game. But keeping Suppan in to get shelled can't be defended logically.

[tosabrewfan]

This "pitch away" idea is complete garbage. Suppan was one pitch away from what - an inning-ending double play? If the bases are loaded with no one out is a pitcher a pitch away from an inning-ending triple play. This was one circumstance where Ned could earn a lot of respect for just saying "I made a mistake, I should have pulled Soup."

[Thurston Fluff]

Nobody is saying the Brewers would have won this game, or any of the others where Ned made questionable decisions.

 

I guess I missed the part where everyone throughout this thread said we were Yosted this game but we would have lost anyway.

 

A manager's job is to put them in the best position to win the game

 

If you amend that to put them in the best position to win the most possible games I agree. Sometimes sacrificing a chance at one game can give a team a better chance at winning the next two. I don't think the current scenario is one of those.

When it comes to last night who gave the Brewers a better chance to win? Soup who gave up 8 runs in 6 innings throwing 64 of his 91 pitches for strikes and had 3 ks' to 1 BB. Or McClung who gave up 3 runs in 2 innings, throwing 27 of his 46 pitches for strikes and walking 2 with 0 k's.

 

 

This was one circumstance where Ned could earn a lot of respect for just saying "I made a mistake, I should have pulled Soup."

 

If you add in and not pitched McClung then maybe I'll agree. Those who keep saying it was a mistake not to put in McClung seem to neglect his equally poor performance in the very same game.

[dvoiss]

I didn't watch the game, but I tried to follow along on the in-game chat and gameday, and I'm not surprised Ned said that Soup was one pitch away from getting out of it before Blum hit the homer. But what happened after that? Was it because he was one pitch away and then just couldn't do anymore after that? Ned can only get so much of the blame, because the players are out there to execute. Granted, in this game, there was a lack of execution, and Ned does deserve some blame. I get being a players' manager, but there's got to be accountability!

Noone is saying that Soup doesn't deserve some blame for what happened but it was certainly not his fault that he was still on the mound to face Blum. Pitchers are not usually allowed to remove themselves from a ballgame. When even Bill "I love Ned" Schroeder is criticizing him you know he messed up big time. There's just no explanation that makes sense for why he was left in.

[olliegjw]

This "pitch away" idea is complete garbage. Suppan was one pitch away from what - an inning-ending double play? If the bases are loaded with no one out is a pitcher a pitch away from an inning-ending triple play. This was one circumstance where Ned could earn a lot of respect for just saying "I made a mistake, I should have pulled Soup."

There were 2 outs when Blum hit the home run to make it 8-4. It is not unusual to get one out on one pitch, hence the "one pitch away" arguement.

[Postseason2006]

Well, let's say...then...he was also one pitch away from blowing the game...Which is what happened. That logic can't work both ways. It's hard to argue a boneheaded decisions after it happened.

 

And then the fact that he's saving the BP for this series? Don't you play for today and worry about tomorrow, tomorrow? And then miss the fact CC and Sheets are going?....UGH...Again why I think Ned is putrid.

[Thurston Fluff]

Well, let's say...then...he was also one pitch away from blowing the game...Which is what happened. That logic can't work both ways. It's hard to argue a boneheaded decisions after it happened.

 

If he had pitched poorly the whole game then I'd agree. The fact that he really wasn't pitching all that poorly outside of the 5th is the part that is being overlooked. If he was going to a lot of 3-0, 2-0 counts, walking people, giving up hard hit ball after hard hit ball every inning then there would be no disagreement from me. He was essentially the same pitcher he always was for five of six innings. He gave up one run in five innings and 7 in one. He walked one person in 6 innings and threw a lot of strikes. There is no reason to believe he wasn't as capable of getting outs going forward than thinking McClung would get out of the inning quicker with less runs being scored. After seeing both pitch yesterday I still feel that way.

[Postseason2006]

Ned was still defending his decision then saying "We needed BP help for this series and CC can't pitch 9 every game." Hey Ned, do you really have the Crystal ball to know that? Play for today.... If your biggest fans burn up houses, I'd to see what your haters do.

[Bucky Rules]

I think if Ned had this one to do over he would've pulled Suppan. I was actually hoping he'd pull him before he faced Carlos Lee. He ended up getting Lee out, then got crushed by Blum. But, just because I thought he should've pulled Soup doesn't mean I'm joining the Dark Side. I'm still perfectly content with Ned as the manager.

[jeffy]

If the Brewers won half the games this thread accused Ned of losing they would have 80 wins now.

 

So does any criticism of any move Yost makes or doesn't make in a game equal blaming Ned and only Ned for a loss? Should the criticisms be restricted only to things that he does in games that the Brewers win? Does every criticism of Yost need to be preceded with "of course, the players are primarily to blame, but..."?

 

What is the point of after-the-fact arguments defending Yost such as: It should also be noted McClung didn't exactly shut down the Astros when he did come in.

 

Did you and Yost know in advance that McClung was not going to pitch well? Who knows, maybe he'd have pitched better if he had come in as soon as he was ready, instead of having him diddle around for two innings.

[Thurston Fluff]

So does any criticism of any move Yost makes or doesn't make in a game equal blaming Ned and only Ned for a loss?

 

I suspect those criticisms are made because they are actually blaming Ned for the loss. I doubt the term Yosted means the team would have won anyway. What would be the point of being Yosted if it didn't mean the outcome was in no small way determined by it? Yosting posts can hide behind the claim they didn't blame him for the loss but it is clear that is the implication.

Should the criticisms be restricted only to things that he does in games that the Brewers win?

 

Who said they have to be? I think criticisms should be relevant to winning or losing a game. Other than that I don't really care. The teams results have pretty much showed Ned doesn't lose many games for them.

 

Does every criticism of Yost need to be preceded with "of course, the players are primarily to blame, but..."?

 

If I felt those who posted the Yostings actually felt the players were really the ones responsible for the losses I wouldn't be such a pain the behind about pointing it out all the time. The very fact that Yosted is a word here shows that is not the case. If you don't want me to remind people the players are the ones really responsible for the wins and losses then stop blaming Ned for those loses. I don't think that is unreasonable. If it is then please let me apologize in advance for what will be my continued unreasonableness.

 

What is the point of after-the-fact arguments defending Yost such as: It should also be noted McClung didn't exactly shut down the Astros when he did come in.

 

the point is it shows how wrong people were to think McClung was going to get out of the fifth with less damage done. I thought that was pretty obvious. What am I supposed to use to counter after the fact arguments criticizing Yost other than after the fact arguments to show those criticisms were off base? Why is it so hard to accept that the actual events that unfolded show Ned wasn't woefully wrong for sticking with Soup over McClung? Is it that hard to admit Ned made the right move even when the evidence suggests he did?

I do think his reasoning wasn't good or he might have wanted to go with Villy but since this particular criticism was Yost should have went to McClung. I'll stick to the fact that that would have been worse for the teams chances.

 

Did you and Yost know in advance that McClung was not going to pitch well?

 

I suspect Ned felt the same before as I did after looking at the results and knowing their history. That Soup is the better pitcher thus gave the team the best chance to get out of that situation. Nobody knows in advance who will do what but that doesn't mean Ned didn't realize the chances of Soup being better than McClung was greater than the reverse.

 

 

Who knows, maybe he'd have pitched better if he had come in as soon as he was ready, instead of having him diddle around for two innings.

 

Is McClung the new Turnbow who can't be trusted to come in in anything other than perfect scenarios? If he is then get rid of him. I have no doubt McClung would have been equally as poor as he was two innings later. This is a guy who has done this before. He is not new to bullpen duty. Add up all the what if's you want to try to strengthen your point. It will never be as convincing as the actual results are.

 

 

 

Judging strictly from that one post you are getting annoyed with me Jeffyscott. If that is the case no big beal I harbor no ill feelings toward you for it. I realize I can wear on people. Please keep in mind we are both fans of the team and though we disagree I always feel the disagreement is that of family not of foe. If we ever get a chance to meet lets agree to team up on the nearest Cub fan and focus our energy on making them cry vs minor arguements between us.http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[jeffy]

since this particular criticism was Yost should have went to McClung.

 

I think that is mostly because that was the guy he had warming up. Also he is the guy in the silly starting platoon...so should be ready to go 3, 4, 5 innings.

 

it shows how wrong people were to think McClung was going to get out of the fifth with less damage done

 

No, that is an unknown. Also note that after the home run, Yost still left Suppan in and the next batter nearly hit another one.

 

Is McClung the new Turnbow who can't be trusted to come in in anything other than perfect scenarios?

 

That is unfair, given that the suggestion was to bring him in in the 5th in a far from ideal situation. McClung kinda even to me looked like he was kinda thinking "so why am I warming up..." at one point. Okay, well I don't know what he was thinking, but I would not be surprised if he had that thought.

 

Judging strictly from that one post you are getting annoyed with me Jeffyscott

 

Not really. I'm really not even all that annoyed with Yost. To me there have not been all that many really bad decisions, but I think this was one as is the pitching platoon.

[Thurston Fluff]

No, that is an unknown. Also note that after the home run, Yost still left Suppan in and the next batter nearly hit another one.

 

Obvoiusly eveything that did not happen is an unknwon but the best indication would be how the person did when called upon later in the same game. McClung pretty much sucked when calle dupon so i think it's fair to say he wasn't going to have been better wiht less warmups or time to prepare.

 

That is unfair, given that the suggestion was to bring him in in the 5th in a far from ideal situation.

 

This was strictly in response to this

 

Who knows, maybe he'd have pitched better if he had come in as soon as he was ready, instead of having him diddle around for two innings.

 

thus no reason to expect him to perform better than the more ideal situation he did eventuality play in. I don't really see how being in a less ideal situation would have made him perform better than he did in the more ideal one.

[TooLiveBrew]

Ned Yost... starting Hall against another RHP. Ned, proving time & time again, that he just doesn't fully 'get it'