Designated Yost Thread... Latest: No accountability and lack of urgency (part 5)

[orca1963]

Stats are a wonderful way of predicting many outcomes in baseball. What they don't take into account is something that Ned has that no one on this board does either. (I am in no way disputing the value of said stats) He is side by side with his players. He knows, as does any manager, what is going on with a player on a day to day basis. Those things come into play when making a descision as well as match ups and numbers. I too would not have shed any tears had Yost been fired after the Boston series, but the team has been winning ever since and we are closing--not on the wildcard--but on the first place team. It seems to me if you credit Yost with the losses then you should give him credit for the wins. To do one and not the other seems a bit hypocritical imo.

 

I was flabbergasted when Mota and then Gagne came in. Same holds true for when Torres hit, but it all worked and there have been many good arguments to the possible thinking behind it. Personally I don't care if Marge Schott is managing this team as long as we win.

[naivin]

But as has been said before & will be said again, Yost should not be praised for playing the smaller odds just because the team picked him up.

 

Yet again though, if you can demonstrate that's what he actually did, go for it. As far as the AB goes, no question, but as I said, a manager cannot take that kind of oversimplified look at any give AB. I still want someone to tell me that with a 1, 2 or even 3 run lead in the bottom of the 10th, that Villy working on his third consecutive day is a better or even equal option to Torres working on his third consecutive day.

[Thurston Fluff]

Villy's updated Marcel projection ERA for remainder of '08: 4.32

Torres's updated Marcel projection ERA for remainder of '08: 4.07

 

So using better or more appropriate stats confirmed Torres is the better option to prevent a run from scoring. Thank you. It is much better to be shown the stats that work better than simply being told the ones I used were wrong.

 

In any event I think it's far better to keep the better pitcher in the game to hold a lead than it is to take him out and hope to score another run. Especially considering it would have took two hits or an extra base hit to score the run.

[naivin]

Ironically, that "some point in May" is pretty much right after the Boston series that Yost was lucky to survive, per some on this board. Hypothetically, had Simmons, Kremblas or some other ABY taken over, by now many would be crediting them with turning the team around!

It is pretty funny, I just went back to read some of the posts from mid-May (p. 46 or so if anyone is interested). You do have to wonder how many games below .500 this team would be right now if they hadn't replaced Ned with a manger who is nicer to the media, yells and screams once in a while, and holds his players accountable (whatever that means). Oh wait...

[sheethead]

naivin[/b]]It is pretty funny, I just went back to read some of the posts from mid-May (p. 46 or so if anyone is interested). You do have to wonder how many games below .500 this team would be right now if they hadn't replaced Ned with a manger who is nicer to the media, yells and screams once in a while, and holds his players accountable (whatever that means). Oh wait...

It is apparent the moves made by Doug Melvin (Branyan, CC) jump started this team, and have so far cancelled out the ineptitude of one Mr. Yost. Good thing Ned has such an awesome GM, or he would look worse than Cecil Cooper does right now.

[Thurston Fluff]

It is apparent the moves made by Doug Melvin (Branyan, CC) jump started this team, and have so far cancelled out the ineptitude of one Mr. Yost. Good thing Ned has such an awesome GM, or he would look worse than Cecil Cooper does right now.

 

If it wasn't for Sabathia and Branyan Hall would never have won two games in a row, on the road, against a team we are chasing.

 

Truth is it takes a team to win. Yost and Melvin make a pretty good management team.

 

Bill Hall is a good example of why Ned is so good. This is a guy who lost his starting role to someone else and was mad about it. But did Ned allow Bill to wallow in self pity or disrupt the team? NO Bill let out some of his frustration then got back to work and continued to work his way back to his original role. Much of credit has to go to Bill Hall, whom I am gaining more respect for by the day, but some of it goes to Ned as well. If Bill had lost respect for Ned that type of situation turns into a real problem like the Mets situation did when they lost respect for Randolph. Ned knows how to keep his players playing through distractions and adversity. In the they end up better players for it. Ned's ability to keep players focused is why I believe he wins far more games for the team through his leadership than he loses with some debatable moves within the game.

 

 

(fixed blue text on blue background --1992)

[jhart05]

Wow, congrats on having the guts to post that "backupcatchers".

 

While I might agree with you, I wouldn't want to battle the wrath of the Yost-haters.

[Fatter than Joey]

While I might agree with you, I wouldn't want to battle the wrath of the Yost-haters.

 

Why not? -- Please do not interpret this as snarky, but a lot of the Nedophiles do not try to argue in the manner that BUC does.

 

BUC does a great job addressing things that the haters actually type (as opposed to constructing fantasy scenarios), and presents his own arguments in a non-confrontational way, yet clearly states points and counter-points without resorting to strawman arguments, or treating each Yost-hater as part of a hive mind.

 

BUC is a great poster, I have certainly learned from and appreciated his effort.

 

That said, I think he may be standing too close to the helium tank sometimes... http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Thurston Fluff]

Some of those who don't like Yost are my favorite posters and I have a great deal of respect for them so I'm not too worried. But either way I'm pretty immune to be told I'm stupid. I already know that.

 

p.s. thanks for cleaning up the blue Casey. Didn't know what the hell I did to make it look like that.

[sheethead]

Truth is it takes a team to win. Yost and Melvin make a pretty good management team.

 

Amen. I am not a big fan of Yost as many know, but I commend Yost on how he is handling the clubhouse. Those guys seem loose and are really having fun right now, and Melvin/Attanasio has helped this cause as well. Hate Yost, love Yost, or indifferent to Yost, its good to be a Brewer fan today.

 

Also, i liked Yost's post game presser comments yesterday. Granted they all seem good when they win. But the Bill Hall comments were true, and I think his players are starting to play for him rather than in spite of him. Maybe this was his master plan... take all the heat and let the players concentrate on getting better. And man did he take the heat. Then again, my logical side just kicked in and told me I am giving Yost too much credit.

[Thurston Fluff]

Maybe this was his master plan... take all the heat and let the players concentrate on getting better. And man did he take the heat.

 

I honestly believe this is part of it. I won't go as far as say master plan as much as his natural approach to that sort of thing is to protect and deflect. He's the anti-Guillen.

 

That said, I think he may be standing too close to the helium tank sometimes...

 

Busted. What gave me away? My chipmonk version of rawhide?

[jhart05]

Why not? -- Please do not interpret this as snarky, but a lot of the Nedophiles do not try to argue in the manner that BUC does.

 

 

Basically I just don't like to argue, I guess. Even if it's a civilized argument like the ones on this board. SOME of the Yost haters (not necessarily on this board) out there have made up their mind the guy's an idiot and no matter what you say, it's not going to change their mind.

 

I wouldn't call myself pro-Yost, definitely not anti-Yost. He's our manager, it is what it is. Accept it, move on, and cheer for the guys on the field. The players like him and are playing hard for him, so the guy must be doing something right.

 

I also think things go on in the dugout that we will never know about that may influence his decisions. So as a rule, I usually give any manager/coach the benefit of the doubt.

[sheethead]

He's the anti-Guillen.

Yes, he's a west-coast caucasian http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/tongue.gif. But seriously, he's starting to remind me why I liked the hire back in 2003. But just for the sake of argument, I still think he's an idiot http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/laugh.gif.

[1992casey]

thanks for cleaning up the blue Casey. Didn't know what the hell I did to make it look like that.

 

You may have confused the first button in the post editor (Font Color) with the fourth button (Hilite Color). However, there's also been a hard to track down Yuku bug with certain Windows/browser combinations that on rare occasions will pop in a background color at will.

 

There's no easy way to back out once a text or hilite color is applied. You either have to start over or edit the HTML/CSS in the code. Several mods are familiar with enough HTML/CSS to do that for members when stuff like this happens.

[Thurston Fluff]

That's exactly what I did casey. I saw it after I posted and tried to fix it but couldn't. I guess that's why we have ModGods to help the flock.

[TooLiveBrew]

Man! You're stupid Buc. Everyone knows how to do blue font! http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

Much of credit has to go to Bill Hall, whom I am gaining more respect for by the day, but some of it goes to Ned as well. If Bill had lost respect for Ned that type of situation turns into a real problem like the Mets situation did when they lost respect for Randolph.

That's a great point. And I'd like to sort of merge my thoughts on this with...

Yost and Melvin make a pretty good management team.

I agree completely. When you look around MLB, you start to notice that the Brewers and their fans are pretty lucky. As moronic as Yost can be or seem at times, he's nothing compared to some of the hacks out there skipper-ing big-league teams. Add in that Melvin is, at worst, a more than competent GM, and that's quite a pairing.

However, I want to address something I've noticed popping up more & more lately: the notion that the players are being 'led' by Yost to whatever W-L record they have / 'the players are winning for Yost' / 'Yost creates a good atmosphere in the clubhouse' / 'The players like each other, largely due to Yost'

Now, not all of those are direct quotes, nor am I singling any one single poster out. I want to address the general sentiment that's there for those points. These ballplayers are (mostly) fully-matured, grown men. And as Buc points out, it takes a team to win. Ned Yost should not get all the credit (or even much at all imo) that grown men can get along, especially when they've been winning as much as they have lately. The players deserve, individually & collectively, every bit as much -- if not more -- credit for the great team chemistry. Ned Yost does not do a whole lot there. Sure, he does some good, positive things in backing up his players. However, the bulk of the players getting along is that the players themselves seem to genuinely like one another. That is mostly to their credit, not Ned's.

**Another aspect I think is getting lost in this is that Melvin (& Attanasio) makes the character of any prospective Brewer a priority. While I agree that skill should not be sacrificed for 'niceness', there are many cases where it doesn't have to be. Melvin (& Jack Z) has done a wonderful job bringing in players that are every bit as good of people as they are ballplayers. Doug, in all likelihood, deserves more credit for the 'mood/rapport in the clubhouse' than Yost, since Melvin is the one actually targeting potential Brewers (Yost may have moderate input there).

Ben Sheets is my shining example of this type of player (Sabathia fits this mold too), and I'm aware that Melvin/Z/Attanasio had nothing to do with his presence here. However, if Ben does indeed move on to another team after this season, I'll miss his goofy, sarcastic, wonderful personality just about as much as I'll miss his prowess on the mound. Imho, it makes being a fan *that* much more rewarding and gratifying.

-------------------------
Just like inaccurately stating, 'Player X is a .287 hitter' (as opposed to, 'Player X has batted .287 to this point in the season'), I feel people also make inaccurate judgments of a manager -- saying things like, 'Look, Yost has got this team leading the WC race, and 1 GB from the Cubs. He's doing a great job!'

Yost plays a part in the team's success, but imho a baseball manager in general is much more accurately viewed as a cog in the machine, as opposed to the machinist skillfully manipulating the gears & whoozits & whatzits to result in a finely crafted result. Yes, the manager does manipulate his 'machine', but the parts of said machine execute results largely/almost completely independent of him.

I think we should be discussing Ned as a part of a group of roughly 30-40 men whose job it is to pile up the W's for the Milwaukee Brewers. In this manner, both critics & supporters (& everyone in between -- most of us) can take a much more realistic approach to Ned's actual impact. Is it greater than Sheets? Fielder? It might be roughly the same, but it's probably a bit less impactful. That's not a knock on Yost, just what I feel to be reality.

My apologies for the mega-post, but thanks to anyone that actually read the whole dang thing.

[Thurston Fluff]

Wells said TLB. I even read the whole thing. I would disagree to a very small extent with Melvin bringing in good guys. He did bring in Tavarez. But I get what you mean. It is mostly the players that make it go. But some amount does have to go to Ned since we all know full grown men don't always act that way. When they don't I'm sure Ned, with the full backing of Doug and Mark, takes care of it. Maybe the best way of putting it is it's an organizational principal that all of them agree on.

[logan82]

Why is Hall starting so many games against RHP? Is Branyan injured? I really think that Yost should be giving Branyan more playing time.

[fondybrewfan]

I at first questioned why Yost didn't have CC bunt with 2 on but after Bill said he hadn't had a sacrifice since 2001 and probably hasn't had a whole of practice at I will give Yost the benefit of the doubt.

 

Needless to say, the way things are going right now, it is pretty hard to find fault with anybody, especially Yost, he has the team playing great right now. Sure it probably is 90% players, but if Ned's 10% is working right now

[dadofandrew]

Yost got a lot smarter the day Doug got CC, and Hall/Weeks started hitting.

[Brew Guzzler]

The players deserve, individually & collectively, every bit as much -- if not more -- credit for the great team chemistry.

 

I would like to extend some extra credit to Prince, Cameron and Kendall for being (at least it appears from the outside) the leaders in the clubhouse. Also chemistry is easy when your winning.

[brewcrew00]

I didn't want to start a new thread for this, but figured it was worth mentioning. I saw this in the STL Post-Dispatch today...

 

"Using his 92nd combination in 103 games, La Russa shook and stirred his lineup for Sabathia."

 

One of those things again that Ned was criticized for last year, and has fixed this year. Could this come back around to bit Tony in the long haul?

[logan82]

brewcrew00 wrote:

One of those things again that Ned was criticized for last year, and has fixed this year. Could this come back around to bit Tony in the long haul?

Yost was in about the middle of the pack in lineups last year. Yost didn't fix anything, he is about average.. LaRussa had 148 different lineups not including the pitcher last year. Including the pitcher he had 159. Yost 109 and 145. 2 spots platooned at the start of last year, the Braun callup later, and injuries to Hall and Weeks. All stuff that would drive up the number of batting orders pretty quickly.

[Thurston Fluff]

If La Russa has a fault it's that he over manages. He's always tinkering and moving. From sac bunting the second hitter of the game to running out of position players by the 10th inning he seems never to be content to just let the players play.

[olliegjw]

If La Russa has a fault it's that he over manages. He's always tinkering and moving. From sac bunting the second hitter of the game to running out of position players by the 10th inning he seems never to be content to just let the players play.

When his team doesn't have as much talent as other teams, that is what he needs to do.