College Basketball 2009-2010 (part 2)

[Oldcity]

I was just going to mention Hughes. Despicable showing. I think it was six turnovers, but that's not what bugs me the most--by a long shot. Did you see him "defend?" He wasn't even trying. He was lazy, and getting burned consistently. It was like he didn't even care to be out there. What a way to go out as a senior.

[razzzorsharp]

Good news. The UWGB women, an underseeded 12, just beat Virginia.

 

Go Phoenix

[trwi7]

Good news. The UWGB women, an underseeded 12, just beat Virginia.

 

Go Phoenix

 

UW women lost to Vermont. Hopefully the men's hockey team takes revenge on that school Friday. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[danzig6767]

Two sweet 16's and an Elite 8 in 9 years is awful?

Seriously? Who did they beat in those?

 

Beat 12 seed Weber State and 13 seed Tulsa (barely, thanks Freddie Owens!)

 

Beat 11 seed Northern Iowa, 14 seed Bucknell and 10 seed North Carolina State.

 

Beat 14 seed Cal State Fullerton and 11 seed Kansas State before losing to 10 seed Davidson.

 

Yeah, really impressive runs to the Sweet 16 and Elite 8 there. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/eyes.gif

 

 

How a team got to a Sweet 16 or Elite 8 is completely irrelevant. You can only play the team you play.

 

That said, Bo hasn't been able to have the kind of tournament success overall to match his regular season success. His style of play on both ends and recruiting to a degree probably all factor into the very mediocre tournament results. I'm skeptical that will change, but all things considered, Bo is a great asset to the university and the athletic program.

[Baldkin]

Considering UW was one of the last 3 schools Evan Turner was choosing between... just imagine if he'd have gone and played for Bo.

[bucks2281]

Once again, I don't think the Elite 8 run was impressive and I don't think either Sweet 16 run was impressive. And two of the last three years they've lost to a double digit seed in the tournament. Sorry, if I'm not impressed with that, if you are, that's fine.

 

I agree. I feel like the 2005 Elite Eight run was handed to them -- failing to beat #11, #14 and #10 seeds would have been a failure, imo. Keep in mind that the 2007 team struggled mightily against a #15 seed and then #7 UNLV destroyed the Badgers in the next game. Bo has yet to lead the Badgers to the type of run, for example, like the 2003 Marquette team -- who beat two higher seeded teams. Nothing against Bo, but he doesn't have a signature tournament victory in his resume yet.

[Oldcity]

The most impressive thing about that Elite 8 run was hanging with that UNC team for most of the game. They played them tough. That's (sadly) debatably Bo's best NCAA Tourney accomplishment.

[danzig6767]

Once again, I don't think the Elite 8 run was impressive and I don't think either Sweet 16 run was impressive. And two of the last three years they've lost to a double digit seed in the tournament. Sorry, if I'm not impressed with that, if you are, that's fine.

 

I agree. I feel like the 2005 Elite Eight run was handed to them -- failing to beat #11, #14 and #10 seeds would have been a failure, imo. Keep in mind that the 2007 team struggled mightily against a #15 seed and then #7 UNLV destroyed the Badgers in the next game. Bo has yet to lead the Badgers to the type of run, for example, like the 2003 Marquette team -- who beat two higher seeded teams. Nothing against Bo, but he doesn't have a signature tournament victory in his resume yet.

Sometimes these seeding numbers can be way off base. Does anyone really buy that Cornell is only a 12th seed level of team? They now supposedly have "upset" both a 5th and 4th seed even though Cornell whipped both teams. I saw both games by Cornell, they are as good or better than Temple who some thought was also under seeded and Wisconsin. I have no doubt that Cornell could win a lot of games in the Big East and Big Ten regardless of only being a 12th seed.

 

Every year there are mid-majors that get only say 7th-12th seeds that are better than that, but because they don't play in a power conference, they could automatically put in those seeding slots. Then when they beat a power conference team or two that were seeded higher, most people stupidly act like it was some big upset when it really wasn't.

 

Of course then it'll be said, well these mid-majors get exposed once they reach the Sweet 16 or Elite 8. The same though would happen to the majority of 4th-5th-6th-7th-8th seeds from power conferences if they managed to get into the Sweet 16 or Elite 8 once they had to go up against the 1-2-3 seeds that make it there also.

 

I'm not trying to make excuses for Bo Ryan, obviously overall in his tenure at UW, Ryan hasn't had the same level of success in the NCAA Tournament to match his success during the regular seasons. I just reject this notion that facing mid-majors is always some big break and thus should lessen wins against them or make a loss to them galling. Wisconsin would have been better off having to face 5th seeded and bigger name Temple than having to face Cornell. Cornell isn't the first mid-major to be legitimately much better than the seed the committee gave them. That's why they often enough knock off higher seeded teams from power conferences or just barely lose to these higher seeded teams from power conferences in nearly every big dance.

[davego]

...or like Cornell saw game tape of the Wisconsin-UWGB game. If someone shoots over 50% from outside the arc, the Badgers are going to struggle.

 

...or maybe figure out that Cornell is a jump-shooting team and try to a) guard a shooter rather then the lane or b) make the hot jump shooter put the ball on the floor a bit.

 

Obviously Cornell can shoot it, my fustration is that Bo played them the same way they defended the 1st game and didn't make any adjustment to deal with the hi-post that killed them.

[Baldkin]

Keep in mind that the 2007 team struggled mightily against a #15 seed and then #7 UNLV destroyed the Badgers in the next game.

You mean the year that their third leading scorer and leading rebounder was out for the season with a dislocated elbow?

Or 03-04 when Tucker missed all but 4 games on a team that could've competed for a final 4 birth with him.

Or 04-05 when everything was lined up for a solid run... but Harris went pro a year early.

 

Everyone seems to think going to the sweet 16 is easy, well, only 2 teams have done it the last 3 years: MSU and Xavier.

[Jimbo]

Good news. The UWGB women, an underseeded 12, just beat Virginia.

 

Go Phoenix

UWGB women were ranked in the Top 25 most of the season. I was stunned they were only a 12.

 

 

 

[trwi7]

UWGB women were ranked in the Top 25 most of the season. I was stunned they were only a 12.

They were, but then they lost a few games in a row and then lost in the semifinals of their conference tournament. Based on that, I'm surprised they got in at all.

 

 

[Buckylovesbeer]

So this thread has fallen into a "we no longer love Bo Ryan" discussion...... thats sad. Just remember, it could and has been worse! UW and Marquette both had nice seasons, ones that beat the expectations of most, and both look pretty good going into the near future.

The state journal today talks about how perhaps this loss will allow Bo to open up a bit, not be so stubborn with his Swing O and Man-to-man D. Bo Ryan critics have said for years how he refuses to change things up, no matter how bad the game is going. This was evident on Sunday when their D was being torched. This one hurt the ego, I am sure. Small adjustments (and one or two better recruits over the next few years) can make a huge difference! But I still argue that if Cornell shoots like they did Sunday, that they would beat anyone. Thats what makes the NCAA tournament the best of all sports.

 

I think this year's tourney has been great so far, and I hope that the upsets keep coming!

[MJLiverock]

Keep in mind that the 2007 team struggled mightily against a #15 seed and then #7 UNLV destroyed the Badgers in the next game.

You mean the year that their third leading scorer and leading rebounder was out for the season with a dislocated elbow?

Or 03-04 when Tucker missed all but 4 games on a team that could've competed for a final 4 birth with him.

Or 04-05 when everything was lined up for a solid run... but Harris went pro a year early.

 

Everyone seems to think going to the sweet 16 is easy, well, only 2 teams have done it the last 3 years: MSU and Xavier.

Excuses, excuses for underperformances or else people just have too high an opinion of where they could reach. Other teams deal with injury and other teams don't have such thin rosters from poor recruting that losing 1 player dooms them every year. This year's team lost no one and their lack of any offense off the bench was exposed and overall lack of talent was exposed. Next year's team will be very thin at guard and offense will be tough to come by.

 

You are right, getting to the Sweet 16 three years in a row isn' t easy but how many teams view getting to the Sweet 16 as the zenith of achievement? I think that is the problem people are seeing or getting frustrated with, that WI can't take the next step beyond just being a decent team somewhere in the 20-30 range in ranking/advancement when all is said and done. I saw posts on forums trash talking about how great WI was because they made the tournament and UNC, UConn, and AZ didn't. I would take those teams last 20 years of basketball accomplishments in a heartbeat over WI's. I'd gladly miss the tourney once in a while if it meant seeing the final four or winning a championship more often then once a century.

 

[Buckylovesbeer]

I agree with your arguements MJL, but with that view basketball in Wisconsin (all teams) really is not good then...... http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[FVBrewerFan]

Took me a day, but I am now content with the Badgers drubbing. Very simply, UW was seeded a bit too high, and Cornell was seeded way too low. It's hard for the committee to seed an Ivy League team very high, but that is a darn god basketball team. I don't know if they can hang with Kentucky, but if the brackets were a little different, Cornell could be a Final Four team.

 

Simialr situation for MU. They caught a red-hot Wash team. I think MU would have beaten New Mex, and sitting in the Sweet 16, but it's the luck of the draw. We see it every year, but we never quote believe it. These teams that are hot and/or really good mid-major teams can and will beat anyone. That's what makes the tourney great.

[Roscoe Chill]

JP Tokoto.

[Diskono]

The state journal today talks about how perhaps this loss will allow Bo to open up a bit, not be so stubborn with his Swing O and Man-to-man D. Bo Ryan critics have said for years how he refuses to change things up, no matter how bad the game is going. This was evident on Sunday when their D was being torched. This one hurt the ego, I am sure. Small adjustments (and one or two better recruits over the next few years) can make a huge difference!

Ryan's refusal to change things for the sake of change are IMO what makes his teams successful - his system works most of the time, so if you stick to it all of the time, you win most of your games. Unfortunately, this also lends itself toward disappointment in knockout-style tournaments. If UW played Cornell in a best of five, I suspect they would win.

[homer]

When a team shoots 65% it doesn't matter who you are - you're probably going to lose. Now an argument can be made that UW LET Cornell hit 65% but still......sometimes teams just get hot.

[Roscoe Chill]

Yes, I think the one shot where the Cornell player went up, had someone right in his face...AND Ryan Evans came over and at the very least had to be in the guys line of vision, but might have even altered the shot, and might have even got a piece of it...but it still went in...kind of summed up the game. That shot, and the 'shot' that went in that was supposed to be an alleyoop.

When you add to the 65% shooting some of the calls that the Badgers weren't getting (did anyone else see the blatant elbow pick on a Badger that led to a made three?) and you get a tough uphill climb on your hands.

I'm not saying the refs lost the game, but when you're down 12, it's a lot different than being down by 5.

I really think Jordan Taylor will become a star next year to go along with their other star Leuer. I also have a feeling that Duje Dukan will become one of those guys that Bo Ryan supposedly DOESN'T get. And then in two more years hopefully they add Tokoto.

It'd be nice if a guy like JP Gavinski would just move on (assuming he's graduating). I respect Bo for not driving busts out of town and all, but five years of it instead of 4 is like a kick in the groin.

[jjkoestler]

JP Tokoto.

Although I'd love to see him wearing Badger Red, I have a feeling he will end up playing for Marquette. Hopefully he doesn't pull a Korie Lucious and leave the state.

[Buckylovesbeer]

JP Tokoto has offers from Duke, North Carolina, Kansas, UW, and Marquette. He is the only play Coach K has given a scholarship offer to since he was named the head coach at Duke roughly 30 years ago.... (He never offered Butch, even though he had him visit, and stayed away from Sam Okey) .....

 

That kid is special. He is very special. I would be very surprised if he stays in state.

[TheCrew07]

I didn't have a problem with BB being some what on the hot seat this last season for football, and I think people have a legit argument about WI's play in the Tourney. It's great an all to have regular season success, but getting bounced in the first weekend is becoming a regular pattern for the Badgers and it needs to stop. I think Bo is an excellent coach but again it's pretty hard to be satisfied with the NCAA tournament performance on his watch.

 

This year's team was pretty good when Hughes and Bohannon were useful, and pretty bad when they weren't, and I'm not talking just offensively.

[LouisEly]

Cornell season averages: FG% - 48.6%, 3-PT FG% - 43.4%. Sunday - 61.1%, 53.3%. When a team shoots that much better than their season averages it is very difficult for anyone to beat them. For reference, when they lost at Penn they shot 43.4% and 34.5% (almost exactly the same when they lost at Kansas). The only chance the Badgers had, which Kentucky has a good chance of doing, was a full-court press to take advantage of better athletes, but UW has neither the athletes nor the depth to do that.

 

As for letting them do that... well, easier said than done. I know what I would do, but it wouldn't win me any friends in the college coaches or ethics circles. When a team is shooting as well as that they are very comfortable; the way to change that is to make them uncomfortable. The first thing that comes to my mind? Hard fouls, particularly on the arm/hand of the hot shooter. A couple of good smacks on that hand to make him feel it. Put their butt on the floor once or twice when they came around those screens. Aside from the physical pain of it, it will get in their head when they shoot - "Am I going to get whacked again?" Like I said, won't win you any friends in the ethics department. But it's about winning.

 

Perhaps the best non-physical way I've seen any coach make another team uncomfortable and get in their head was by Kevin O'Neill when he coached Marquette and they played Kentucky in the tournament, I think in 1993. Kentucky was known for their 3-point shooting, so what did O'Neill do? He put in a 1-3-1 zone, and who did he put at the top of the 3-point circle? All 7'1" of Jim McIllvaine. Kentucky's 3-point shooters suddenly had to think about a 7-footer with a 7-foot wingspan coming at them when they were shooting. Don't know if he blocked that many, but it made them think about it and alter their shot and thus they missed a lot. Then they had Damon Key swinging his big rear end down low to the tune of about 15 boards (still remember Clark Kellogg's call - "Damon Key, eatin' up glass, buffet-style on the boards!"). Don't know if UW could pull that off (or if Ryan would be willing to make that change).

[LouisEly]

As for UW next year, I know that "everyone" (meaning the media, not myself) thought they wouldn't be very good this year. But I knew they had a decent trio of guards and Leuer was coming into his own. Next year they will definitely be worse because they will have zero depth at guard. Sure Jordan Taylor is as good as Hughes, but who else will they have? Rob Wilson isn't a good enough shooter at this point to be a real good shooting guard. Jarmusz? Don't know that he's quick enough to play guard, or defend guards. Evans? Same - I think he'll be a really good player, but really a forward, not a good enough outside shot to be a true guard. Gasser? Don't know that you can count on much from a true freshman. Certainly, if Jordan Taylor goes down next year you can pretty much kiss the NCAA tourney goodbye.

 

Funny thing is that Marquette will be the exact opposite - plenty of good guards, not enough height. Gonna get killed on the boards again. I think they have a better shot than UW next year if Otule/Mbao can get healthy/better.