The CC Sabathia thread: Latest - CC a Brewer! (part 2)

[gbpacker40]

Let me say in the 3 past seasons I came up with these numbers....

 

130+ ERA

3.42 ERA

1.182 WHIP

 

I could be wrong as I did it by hand.....

Please compare that to Johan Santana....

 

142 +

3.03

1.097

 

While Santana does have him beat, its not by a HUGE margin. And I think most would agree here that Santana is arguably the best pitcher in the game the past 3 seasons.

[Twigs37]

SpaceBadger- Winning percentage is really a misleading stat to judge the amount of wins a pitcher could give you. Take into account run support or defense and winning percentage is changed by a lot.

[SpaceBadger16]

True, my fantasy league this year had a long debate about even using Wins as a stat. I'd guess that CC's numbers would likely mirror Sheets' posted above. I just don't know if it's worth it...I really think LaPorta is going to be a stud in the Majors and we'll have him under contract for a lot longer.

[RyDogg66]

If Escobar is the reason its being held up, trade him them...

It occurred to me that the same mentality that leads to bad trades might also apply to people with large chip stacks getting busted out of poker tournaments. What this mentality is akin to is having a large chip stack (lots of prospects) a good way through a tournament (the season). You have a plan and have stuck by it to get to where you are (develop young talent, dont over pay for mediocrity), you play tight but agressive, and everyone at your table knows it. You maybe are in late position and the blinds are a decent size, there are a few guys in the pot (teams looking for help) but nobody has come in too strong, and certainly nobody you are afraid of. You are sitting there with pocket Jacks (a really good offer you are confident about) and you make a very assertive raise (offer for the player you want). Players start to fold and you are ready to rake in a great pot (Sabathia) and be on your way to the money (playoffs). But the last guy to fold is thinking...and thinking...and thinking...and finally he reraises you. TO call it will be all of your chips. You figure there is a good chance you are beat (facing Aces or Kings) but you have come too emotionally invested in the pot and so you call, even though it is against your own personal rules of poker to do so with a hand like pocket Jacks. So you call the bet and flip them over and sure enough you are beat. Now your only hope is to flop a set (make the playoffs, even World Series) to make it worth it, and hope bad luck doesnt allow him to make a set as well (lose in the Playoffs or World Series).

Al was right when he said that we have made our offer and if Cleveland wants it, they should take it. Cleveland needs power desperately and they need position players. If we are offering them Laporta (who is ready now) and Green, who was our ML player of the year in 2007 and is a legit 3b/2b prospect with pop, then the Indians wont be trading for Adam Laroche and a pitcher from LA. We cant be so emotionally invested at this point that we say "fine just take whoever you want to make the deal then" and go against everything we have been building for.

 

[ELCABALLO45]

I stopped reading after you compared it to a poker game.

 

Lets stop arguing.

 

Does anyone have a update?

[paul253]

Also take into account he'd routinely pitch deeper into games than Bush, which would keep the bullpen fresher, which can only help.

 

The more I think about it, the more I would not trade Escobar. I think Escobar will be our staring shortshop in 2010, at which point JJ Hardy should move over to third base. Hall and Branyan will both be gone by then, and it would vastly improve our defense. I can live with giving up LaPorta, but not both him AND Escobar. Gamel could slide into first or leftfield, preferrable first to replace Fielder. In 2010 then we could have an outfield of Braun, Hart and Brantly, with Hardy at 3rd, Escobar at short, Weeks at second, and Gamel at first.

 

1) Brantly

2) Escobar

3) Braun

4) Gamel

5) Hart

6) Weeks

7) Hardy

8) Salome.

 

A lineup consisting entirely of player developed by us. Plus then you trade Fielder for some good young pitching.

[danzig6767]

D'oh!!! The Dodgers are also now in the CC mix. C'mon Doug do not let him get away. Give them an extra piece if you have to.

 

Exactly what most of us are afraid of. Its borderline as it is, and extra piece would suck.

I'm not afraid at all. I do whatever I have to do to get it done. You don't think that privately, the Cardinals and the Cubs would absolutely have the fear of god in them with the Brewers trotting out Sheets and Sabathia every five days?? Unlike a lot of you here, I truly believe the Brewers are the best team in this division, and getting CC will further strengthen that. As far as the prospects they have to give up, who cares?? Worry about next year, next year. You try to win now, you never know when you will have this good of a chance again. You go all in. If the Indians call me right now and say "Doug, we've considered your offer and it's a tremendous offer, but we really need Escobar in the deal, and should you include him, we can have CC on a plane to Milwaukee tomorrow". I simply reply with "we have ourselves a deal".

 

 

Thankfully, this post is one reason among many others that you're posting on a message board and aren't a major league GM. A smart GM when asked what prospects to give up, he won't say, who cares, whatever you want to get a deal done is fine with me, just get Sabathia on a plane to Milwaukee. You would though be a wet dream for any GM out there trying to sell off a vet at the trade deadline.

 

[RyDogg66]

Im definitely not arguing. I was just cautioning people from being emotionally invested. And if you dont think making a deadline deal is similar to playing poker I think you are mistaken. There are a million signs that Doug needs to read to not get fleeced and make a bad deal, or one that is much more than he has to. There is misinformation being leaked on purpose, there are other teams that are serious, some not so much. He needs to read Shapiro and also know the tendencies of the other GMs to make the best move. It is a lot of intuition.

[endaround]

Making a deadline deal is a lot more like conducting an auction. And that means our old friend winner's curse often shows up:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winner%27s_curse

[aintbize]

Hopf just got designated to Huntsville, does that me Salome is headed to Cleveland??? The Dodgers need a shortstop more than they do CC, I am not worried about them.

[tristarscoop]

D'oh!!! The Dodgers are also now in the CC mix. C'mon Doug do not let him get away. Give them an extra piece if you have to.

 

Exactly what most of us are afraid of. Its borderline as it is, and extra piece would suck.

I'm not afraid at all. I do whatever I have to do to get it done. You don't think that privately, the Cardinals and the Cubs would absolutely have the fear of god in them with the Brewers trotting out Sheets and Sabathia every five days?? Unlike a lot of you here, I truly believe the Brewers are the best team in this division, and getting CC will further strengthen that. As far as the prospects they have to give up, who cares?? Worry about next year, next year. You try to win now, you never know when you will have this good of a chance again. You go all in. If the Indians call me right now and say "Doug, we've considered your offer and it's a tremendous offer, but we really need Escobar in the deal, and should you include him, we can have CC on a plane to Milwaukee tomorrow". I simply reply with "we have ourselves a deal".

 

Thankfully, this post is one reason among many others that you're posting on a message board and aren't a major league GM. A smart GM when asked what prospects to give up, he won't say, who cares, whatever you want to get a deal done is fine with me, just get Sabathia on a plane to Milwaukee. You would though be a wet dream for any GM out there trying to sell off a vet at the trade deadline.

 

Sadly, that somewhat crazed talk sounds a lot like Melvin and Yost did this pre-season. I never understood why the whole thing has been "now or never."

 

[paul253]

I think we got fleeced in the Linebrink trade. He gave up way too much, and severly hurt our pitching depth. I just want to see him get fleeced again by giving up way too much to get 14 starts out of Sabathia. I'd give up Laporta and Green, but not Escobar.

[tigerbrew]

No way I'd include Hardy in the deal, we need him for the playoff run too. Gamel, Escobar, Green and Jeffress are also off limits to me.

 

LaPorta and Weeks for CC is my final offer to the Indians.

[Sheets4theHOF]

Sadly, that somewhat crazed talk sounds a lot like Melvin and Yost did this pre-season. I never understood why the whole thing has been "now or never."

 

That because of one man. Ben Sheets.

 

 

In all this talk of not getting too emotional about acquiring CC, I think we also need to remember not to fall too in love with prospects. I remember back when JJ Hardy was a prospect everyone was raving about his defensive ability like Escobar. Now posters are saying he's average.

[ELCABALLO45]

It seems like tigerbrew is really Doug Melvin http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[aintbize]

No way I'd include Hardy in the deal, we need him for the playoff run too. Gamel, Escobar, Green and Jeffress are also off limits to me.

 

LaPorta and Weeks for CC is my final offer to the Indians.

 

I like that trade as it includes no pitching prospects on our end!

[paul253]

If we trade Weeks, who's going to play second, and who's going to bat lead off?

[Diggr14]

If youre going to toss all sorts of prospects at a rental, your franchise will never become viable.

 

 

If they are willing to deal LaPorta+Escobar.. they should be inquiring about Tim Lincecum or pitchers in that mold who actually have several years of arbitration left, that way we arent giving away these guys for nothing after this year.

[tigerbrew]

I'm not worried about the Dodgers competition at all because I don't think Colletti's offer to the Indians will be close to the Brewers. Throughout the offseason, Colletti has proven to be very unwilling to part with his top propects in trade talks. LaPorta is better than what the Dodgers will offer.

[tigerbrew]

If we trade Weeks, who's going to play second, and who's going to bat lead off?

Dillion or Counsell.

[Brewcrewin07]

Hmmmm anyone know why Chris Errecart was lifted after 1 AB for Huntsville tonight??

[Trowekamp]

If we trade Weeks, who's going to play second, and who's going to bat lead off?

Brian Roberts...

 

I keep hoping they do a Laporta / Errecart / Nelson trade for Sabathia and a straight up Weeks for Roberts..

[Big Cat Dad]

If we trade Weeks, who's going to play second, and who's going to bat lead off?

who cares? No one is doing those things right now anyway.

[agarr26]

That C.C Sabathia "has made his last start for the Indians". He did not have any other info at this time. Report was made at 9:35pm central time.

[Trowekamp]

This reminds me of the Randy Moss rumors... it better not end the same way.