The CC Sabathia thread: Latest - CC a Brewer! (part 2)

[The Ignitor]

If Cleveland balks at offer including LaPorta and Green, then I'll live without Sabathia and take Maddux. I think we can catch the Cards with Maddux. Then in the off-season we can pry away Grienke or Cain for the type of prospects Cleveland is balking at. Their expectations are absurd for a mid-season rental. They want more at mid-season for Sabathia than the Twins got for Santana (a better pitcher over his career) from the Mets. They're way over-valuing a three month rental.

[TheCrew07]

I say we tell Cleveland to stick it and get Maddux for Gwynn and move on. Especially after reading an Indians board and them saying that the deal should be Lapota, gamel, green, and a pitcher. screw them, let them deal with Philly's crap.

Who wouldn't want to solidify 3 corner spots longterm with a single trade? Green can definately handle 3B, LaPorta and Gamel either corner OF or 1B. It also solves their power outage, they instantly aquire 3 guys with power. I don't see the difference between that and the spare parts deals that people toss around here... for example... Gwynn, Hall, Nelson, and Gillespie for Greinke. The deal has to work for both sides..

[jjfanec]

Fans will always make crazy trade offers but I think the Cleveland management is making a mistake to not take an offer of Green and LaPorta. I dont really like the deal that much for the Brewers because I think the LaPorta is enough alone with maybe an A-ball pitcher not named Jeffress

[dadofandrew]

Laporta for CC and 2 high draft picks? I wish.

[bklynbrewcrew]

From what I can tell we are bidding against ourselves. Melvin appears to be way too eager to make a deal; desperate if you ask me. That is a recipe for failure. I say we move on and trade for Maddux and keep our future intact.

[Brewcrewin07]

Here is your official fresh news update from our friend Buster Olney during an in-inning conversation during the Yankees-Red Sox game on ESPN radio.

 

Olney said the Indians are pushing hard for either Escobar or JJ Hardy in a deal. (why when they have Peralta?) but the Brewers are likely not to bite unless the Indians were willing to give up a fading prospect Andy Marte. The current offer is CC Sabathia for OF Matt LaPorta, IF Taylor Green, and RHP John Axford which the Indians are balking at.

 

On a real exciting side note: Olney said regardless of what happens with CC Sabathia the Brewers are likely to get Greg Maddux, possibly before the allstar break. Had no names but I am sure it isn't for much more then maybe Gywnn and a lower level pitcher.

Maddux for Gwynn makes so much sense it probably wont happen.

Give it to them and get it done. Worry about next year,next year. The chance to win is now. There may not be a chance next year or the year after.

 

[brewtank34]

Maddux is horrible...why would we want him? Seriously? I'm not a big fan of Bush, but I'd rather have Bush than Maddux. I don't trust his stuff anymore and frankly, I'm surprised any of you are willing to trade TGJ for him.

[jjfanec]

Laporta for CC and 2 high draft picks? I wish.

good point. I seem to forget about the draft picks quite often. I guess I just dont like giving up prospects. I probably could be won over on the LaPorta, Green, Axford trade.

 

[phxMILWfan]

If people are dreaming of signing Sheets and Sabathia... keep dreaming. Sabathia will get a 6 or 7 year deal at over 20 mil per, Sheets will get a 5 or 6 year deal when the bidding is over for around 20 mil per. There are literally only a handful of teams in MLB that can afford those salaries for the tail end of a pitcher's career, and all of them with the exception of Boston need pitching (though you can never have too much pitching).

 

There is no way the Brewers can afford to outbid the years for one players, let alone both and have half their current payroll tied up in 2 players. Yes Milwaukee supports the the team well, but that's what allows the Brewers to have an average payroll to begin with. There are limits to the amount of revenue this market can generate, and we have to be nearing that limit. With attendence closing in on 3 mil, how many untapped resources are left for revenue? I believe the TV contract is up for renewal in the near future and that should help, but seriously, where is the money going to come from?

 

Which one of those pitchers do you think is at the tail end of their career? Both are in their prime. Also in Jayson Starks' Rumblings and Grumblings he says that CC's family and friends say he isn't the type of guy to fight for every last dollar.

[twobrewers]

From what I can tell we are bidding against ourselves. Melvin appears to be way too eager to make a deal; desperate if you ask me.

It certainly appears that way. And I am not happy about it.

 

It's a tough situation. We want CC now. But Cleveland isn't going to get a better offer than LaPorta & Green. So if we waited, they would certainly take that deal at the deadline.

I say deal Gwynn for Maddux now. And if Cleveland comes back to the table later - we can reassess the situation. I am confident Melvin wouldn't do anything too rash - but Mark A. worries me.

[jjfanec]

Maddux is horrible...why would we want him? Seriously? I'm not a big fan of Bush, but I'd rather have Bush than Maddux. I don't trust his stuff anymore and frankly, I'm surprised any of you are willing to trade TGJ for him.

Maddux does come some questions. He has been rocked his last two starts. Before that he went 7 straight starts giving up 2 runs or less, although 2 of those starts only went around 5 innings

[LUKE232323]

I'm really shocked that people aren't willing to give up one of the three AA studs to land Sabathia, one of the best pitchers in the game. Our farm system is fine, we had a ton of picks injected into the system this year and will have multiple picks again in 2009. I'm all about having the best 1-2 punch in the NL on the hill.

 

Get it done Melvin.

[splitterpfj]

Maddux is not horrible, he just isn't great at this point.

 

I think he would be an upgrade over Bush, though not a major one. The key to me would be adding depth, and experience.

 

Gwynn is a role player, who may not even have a future in that capacity with the Brewers - I'd do that deal.

 

For CC, I'd stick with one of the studs at Huntsville, plus Green and a low-level pitcher. I'd give them more than that, but I'd want more than just CC in return, which I guess is right where the two GMs are at this point.

[southpaw121505]

Dude, why wouldn't Cleveland try and get more at the last minute of trade negotiations? That doesn't mean they won't accept our offer in the end. I also don't think DM is bidding against himself. I'm pretty sure our offer is and will be the best on the table, I'm calling their bluff that they won't take the LaPorta and Green offer. I doubt we panic and give more than that.

 

It also has been said that our offer is only on the table for a limited amount of time, that makes sense because we want every start possible from him. Cleveland is trying to get more out of us or the moon from another team but it won't happen.

 

CC Sabathia will make his next start for the Milwaukee Brewers and it will not cost the Brewers more than the mentioned LaPorta and Green deal. Book it.

[brewtank34]

Maddux does come some questions. He has been rocked his last two starts. Before that he went 7 straight starts giving up 2 runs or less, although 2 of those starts only went around 5 innings

If we could platoon Maddux with a DeFelice/CV, then I may change my mind.

[RU Rah Rah]

Basically, with Maddux, you'd get a decent upgrade over McClung (who would go back to the pen) for the remainder of the season -- more or less for free. (No offense, TGJ.)

 

CC would be a bigger upgrade over that term, obviously, but the long-term value wouldn't be as great b/c of the cost.

 

If McClung is a 4 out of 10, maybe Maddux is 5-6, and CC is 7-8. I just don't think that CC is going to be so colossally better than Maddux over the short term that you would give away so many prospects, as opposed to essentially nothing.

[jjfanec]

Dude, why wouldn't Cleveland try and get more at the last minute of trade negotiations? That doesn't mean they won't accept our offer in the end. I also don't think DM is bidding against himself. I'm pretty sure our offer is and will be the best on the table, I'm calling their bluff that they won't take the LaPorta and Green offer. I doubt we panic and give more than that.

 

It also has been said that our offer is only on the table for a limited amount of time, that makes sense because we want every start possible from him. Cleveland is trying to get more out of us or the moon from another team but it won't happen.

 

CC Sabathia will make his next start for the Milwaukee Brewers and it will not cost the Brewers more than the mentioned LaPorta and Green deal. Book it.

I hope you are right. I want CC here by his next start no need him racking up innings for a team he isnt going to stay with. Every start he misses decreases his value just a little bit. What I like after looking at CC's stats is the relief who could bring the bullpen.

 

[TheCrew07]

phxMILWfan wrote:

 

Which one of those pitchers do you think is at the tail end of their career? Both are in their prime. Also in Jayson Starks' Rumblings and Grumblings he says that CC's family and friends say he isn't the type of guy to fight for every last dollar.

Both are entering the tail end of their careers. They aren't dead, but the average player peaks before 30 and slowly declines. Sabathia is in his Prime right now, Sheets is at the tail end of his prime. My statements aren't regarding next year or the year after, but I think people constantly overlook what the Brewers would be paying for at the end of the deal... when Sabathia is 35 or Sheets is 36? Look around the league at once dominant pitchers who have reached that age, how many are worth 20+/year? Even if you totally discount the fact the Brewers would have to pay the other 23 players around 40 million dollars total, is that 20+/per money well spent?

 

As I've stated before, it's going to come down to years, and I don't see how the Brewers can go more than 4 years in either case.

 

With all due to respect to you and Jason Stark, the fact that Sabathia wouldn't do any sort of home town discount for the Indians pretty much negates that notion. It's already public that he wants Santana money, it is what it is.

[MillerParkSouth]

If they asked for LaPorta AND Escobar or Hardy I hope Doug laughed and hung up the phone. It's not like we have him for next year too, we have him for 10-12 starts! They should be happy we're offering them LaPorta at all!

[phxMILWfan]

If they asked for LaPorta AND Escobar or Hardy I hope Doug laughed and hung up the phone. It's not like we have him for next year too, we have him for 10-12 starts! They should be happy we're offering them LaPorta at all!

Cleveland's not going to care about our inability to resign CC. They just want whatever they can get. Everyone over values their own players anyway.

[StearnsFTW]

If LaPorta or Escobar are included, if just one goes, the Brewers will rue the day. The cost of catching prospects is quite steep, and if we can't get CC for Green, Salome, and Gillespie plus a minor league pitcher that's not named Jeffress then the Crew better stand pat. If Melvin includes the other two he's just saying "we've got no future." And I'd be very disturbed by that. Enough to fire him and replace him with Jack Z.

I couldnt agree more with this. We will rue the day that we trade LaPorta for a rental. If Melvin makes this trade he definitely needs to be replaced by Jack Z because he is mortgaging the future on a rental pitcher. Melvin needs to keep LaPorta, Gamel, Escobar, and Jeffress out of any deal for a rental.

You guys realize that Green, Salome, Gillepie & Braddock (a pitcher not named Jeffress) is a much better offer than LaPorta, right?

 

It never ceases to amaze me how undervalued Green is on this board. He is hitting the same as Gamel did last year at Brevard (roughly) at the same age, and actually can play defense. He can also play 2nd base very capably. I would much much rather give up Laporta and Cain or Gillespie than the above offer. Value-wise Green, Salome & Braddock are worth far more to me than LaPorta.

 

Now, having said that, if it's LaPorta and Escobar I would freak. Shortstops don't grow on trees, especially guys that field like Alcides. Given the love that was shown for Escobar during Spring Training by the FO and Ned, I don't see him going.

 

My guess (unfortunately) will be: LaPorta and Green for CC and Betancourt/Perez.

 

I wouldn't be thrilled with losing Green, but I could live with it if we get a decent bullpen arm.

 

[phxMILWfan]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3473815

 

Considering Yost's comments to the media this year and then doing the opposite with his lineup it looks like we will have CC soon. Yost says its just a rumor and when asked where CC would fit in our rotation he says CC is not on our team.

[SeriesFinale]

To be honest with you, I love Ned's answer there about where Sabathia would fit in. Why create discontent in the clubhouse by speculating what current member of the team would go down, especially when there's still a good chance of Sabathia not coming.

 

I also have to say that I love the idea of both Maddux and Sabathia coming...putting McClung and Bush in the bullpen "solves" (as it were) a couple of other problems for us.

[CportBadger]

I think Bush would go down to the minors until late August to keep him stretched out and protect against injury.

[DHonks]

SeriesFinale, I would assume Bush would go to AAA to keep him stretched out as a starter. Mota might be DFA'd.

 

I was looking at Brewers salaries both on Brewerfan.net and usatoday.com. I looked at players that I feel are likely to be gone in '09-- Cameron, Gagne, Hall, Mota, Turnbow, and Capuano.

 

Taking all of their salaries and adding in Sheets' salary gives approximately $43 million in '08 salaries.

 

Give Sheets $19 million (5 years, $95 million)

Give Sabathia $21 million (5 years, $105 million)

That leaves about $3 million in the '09 budget, along with ticket increases, increases in revenues from '08's high attendence and possible playoffs, and projected '09 attendence. All of that should be able to sufficiently absorb the increases in salaries for JJ Hardy, Prince Fielder, and Corey Hart.

 

In theory, we could sign both pitchers to huge contracts AND preserve our offense. A rotation of Sheets, Sabathia, Gallardo, Parra, and ???? would rock