The CC Sabathia thread: Latest - CC a Brewer! (part 2)

[phxMILWfan]

This is part of Jayson Starks' Rumblings and Grumblings, the whole thing is worth reading

 

• Brew view: Clubs that have checked in with the Brewers say they're being so aggressive in their hunt for a big-time starting pitcher, they might even be willing to include J.J. Hardy or Rickie Weeks "in the right deal." The Brewers have onrushing 21-year-old shortstop Alcides Escobar tearing it up in Double-A. So their middle infield would be covered long-term, and some combination of Craig Counsell, Bill Hall (if he's not dealt) and Joe Dillon potentially could handle it short-term. Let's say this again: The Brewers are a team you should not take your eyes off in the pre-deadline hysteria. "They'd listen on just about anybody for the right pitcher," said an official of one club that spoke with them. "And they're still very deep in their system. We've got nine prospects on our list from their Double-A club alone."

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&page=rumblings

 

Pretty cool to see that other teams are scouting 9 of our guys in double A alone.

[phxMILWfan]

Also from Jayson Starks' column

 

• Rocky time: Clubs that have spoken with the Rockies this week are reporting they're now open for business. Two weeks ago, they were hoping the return of Troy Tulowitzki and Holliday might launch them back into the race. But apparently, an 0-6 trip to Kansas City and Detroit ended that dream. So the first name they'll try to move is Fuentes, the only potential free agent on the roster. As reported previously, the Yankees, A's, Phillies, Mets, Red Sox and Rays are in. It's believed the Marlins also have checked in.

 

Fuentes is coming off an ugly week, however (seven earned runs in 2/3 of an inning over two appearances). So he'll need to straighten himself out before the bidding picks up.

 

"Everything he threw was flat," said one scout. "To be honest, I didn't really see an out pitch."

 

But Fuentes is so versatile, he might be the only reliever on the market who could be a closer, eighth-inning set-up man or situational left-hander. So he will get moved. The price tag, according to one club: "One good piece."

[squambaum]

I really don't like the inclusion of LaPorta in this deal at all. He's just too much to give up for a rental player in my opinion. We have no chance to resign Sabathia if he wouldn't resign for Clevland its pretty obvious he is resigned to test the FA market which means we'd have to win the bidding outright. His and Sheets departure would leave the Brewers with an awful rotation and the two best pitchers on the market would both be coming from out team. Absent a good rotation our best shot at the playoffs next year is a potent offensive lineup which would have to include some of our AA bats. I guess I see our options beyond this year as playing the AA bats in Milwaukee and hope for the best or dealing some or our prospects in the offseason to bolster the rotation, and if that's the case why not just package LaPorta plus for a quality pitcher we control beyond just this year.

I know we get draft picks for CC and Sheets but there is no guarantee that those picks are 1st round pick or that they are made by Jack Z. There is bound to be turnover across the league and Jack's name has come up a lot lately to fill vacancys.

[JoeHova]

I don't like this strategy of 2008 apparently being the only year they plan on competing. I thought they planned on building toward something, not panicking and going for it all in one year.

 

I mean, I'm impatient too, but CC is just as likely to not do much to help (ie- league average-ish ERA) as he is to break out a Randy Johnson 1998 type of second half. It would be exciting for them to get him, but giving up 12-18 or more years of what seems to be good bets of above average play for 2-3 months of above average pitching seems like a stupid deal, even with the draft picks. Melvin is putting so much pressure on Jack Z by trading away guys that are already developed in order to get draft picks. I don't like it, though I would obviously hope it worked out.

[jjfanec]

I don't like this strategy of 2008 apparently being the only year they plan on competing. I thought they planned on building toward something, not panicking and going for it all in one year.

 

I mean, I'm impatient too, but CC is just as likely to not do much to help (ie- league average-ish ERA) as he is to break out a Randy Johnson 1998 type of second half. It would be exciting for them to get him, but giving up 12-18 or more years of what seems to be good bets of above average play for 2-3 months of above average pitching seems like a stupid deal, even with the draft picks. Melvin is putting so much pressure on Jack Z by trading away guys that are already developed in order to get draft picks. I don't like it, though I would obviously hope it worked out.

C.C.'s ERA is bloated from a bad first month. In his last month he has 5 starts, is 3-0, a 1.80 ERA, with 41 K's, 6BB, and only 27 hits in 40 innings (that is a WHIP well under 1). I think that is a marked improvement from dave bush and it will help our bullpen a ton because he is averaging 8 innings a start over those 5. I struggle with dealing LaPorta because I think he will be very good, but CC will definitely help this team.

 

[sbrylski]

I'm glad we are all expecting the worst in terms of prospects we'll give. It gives us a chance to be pleasantly surprised.

 

All Star Presser............ announce CC trade, Sheeter signs a 5 year $100M deal, Hart 5 years $40M Get er done

 

I'm with you. Its going to be on Mark to either cough up the money for Sheets/CC, otherwise we need to take a half step back and retool and regroup for a year or two.

[phxMILWfan]

What kind of payroll are we looking at for next year in this dream situation of keeping Sheets and CC? Taking Gagne's contract away and all the other assumed changes for next year. If its around 90 million I'm sure Mark A. could cover it. How about some sort of Packers selling stock or Lambeau situation too? Or just pass a bucket around the stadium and take up collection. I'd buy meaningless Brewers stock to help bring in CC and keep Sheets.

[JoeHova]

I don't like this strategy of 2008 apparently being the only year they plan on competing. I thought they planned on building toward something, not panicking and going for it all in one year.

 

I mean, I'm impatient too, but CC is just as likely to not do much to help (ie- league average-ish ERA) as he is to break out a Randy Johnson 1998 type of second half. It would be exciting for them to get him, but giving up 12-18 or more years of what seems to be good bets of above average play for 2-3 months of above average pitching seems like a stupid deal, even with the draft picks. Melvin is putting so much pressure on Jack Z by trading away guys that are already developed in order to get draft picks. I don't like it, though I would obviously hope it worked out.

C.C.'s ERA is bloated from a bad first month. In his last month he has 5 starts, is 3-0, a 1.80 ERA, with 41 K's, 6BB, and only 27 hits in 40 innings (that is a WHIP well under 1). I think that is a marked improvement from dave bush and it will help our bullpen a ton because he is averaging 8 innings a start over those 5. I struggle with dealing LaPorta because I think he will be very good, but CC will definitely help this team.

 

 

 

I'm not talking about CC's ERA for this year, I'm talking about the fact that anybody can do anything over 2-3 months. There is no sort of guarantee CC will keep pitching like he has been the last month. Meanwhile, his career numbers are good, but not great.

[jjfanec]

I'm not talking about CC's ERA for this year, I'm talking about the fact that anybody can do anything over 2-3 months. There is no sort of guarantee CC will keep pitching like he has been the last month. Meanwhile, his career numbers are good, but not great.

Okay, lets look at his numbers the past two years. He has had an ERA of 3.21 and a WHIP of 1.15. Those are great numbers over 2 years, especially in the AL. You can look at career numbers but what does what he did 3 and 4 years ago matter.

 

[wallus]

Anybody else see a trade like this being a "Sexson" type trade? I know Richie had some success in the majors before we got him but LaPorta should profile similar.

[JoeHova]

Yes, lets disregard all the times he hasn't been dominant. Then we're guaranteed to be getting a dominant pitcher!

 

Look, all I'm saying is that baseball is not like basketball where a superstar can be traded for (like Gasol) and lead a team on a 26-5 stretch. Baseball is much more volatile and unpredictable. In fact, look at CC's postseason numbers last year after his Cy season.

[RyDogg66]

Anybody else see a trade like this being a "Sexson" type trade? I know Richie had some success in the majors before we got him but LaPorta should profile similar.

You mean trade LaPorta for a bunch of has-beens and place fillers? Who would be the Cleveland version of Moeller, Counsell and Spivey?

 

[phxMILWfan]

I think CC brings more to the team than what he does in his starts, it shows the whole team and the fans as well as the rest of the league that we are serious contenders and want to win. It pushes everyone but sheets back as far as their role, helps the bullpen by moving either Bush or McClung out of a starting role. It would be huge.

[Madtown Bomber]

Here is your official fresh news update from our friend Buster Olney during an in-inning conversation during the Yankees-Red Sox game on ESPN radio.

 

Olney said the Indians are pushing hard for either Escobar or JJ Hardy in a deal. (why when they have Peralta?) but the Brewers are likely not to bite unless the Indians were willing to give up a fading prospect Andy Marte. The current offer is CC Sabathia for OF Matt LaPorta, IF Taylor Green, and RHP John Axford which the Indians are balking at.

 

On a real exciting side note: Olney said regardless of what happens with CC Sabathia the Brewers are likely to get Greg Maddux, possibly before the allstar break. Had no names but I am sure it isn't for much more then maybe Gywnn and a lower level pitcher.

[wallus]

Anybody else see a trade like this being a "Sexson" type trade? I know Richie had some success in the majors before we got him but LaPorta should profile similar.

You mean trade LaPorta for a bunch of has-beens and place fillers? Who would be the Cleveland version of Moeller, Counsell and Spivey?

 

 

I think you underestimate the grittyness of those players.

[wallus]

Here is your official fresh news update from our friend Buster Olney during an in-inning conversation during the Yankees-Red Sox game on ESPN radio.

 

Olney said the Indians are pushing hard for either Escobar or JJ Hardy in a deal. (why when they have Peralta?) but the Brewers are likely not to bite unless the Indians were willing to give up a fading prospect Andy Marte. The current offer is CC Sabathia for OF Matt LaPorta, IF Taylor Green, and RHP John Axford which the Indians are balking at.

 

On a real exciting side note: Olney said regardless of what happens with CC Sabathia the Brewers are likely to get Greg Maddux, possibly before the allstar break. Had no names but I am sure it isn't for much more then maybe Gywnn and a lower level pitcher.

Maddux for Gwynn makes so much sense it probably wont happen.

[jjfanec]

Here is your official fresh news update from our friend Buster Olney during an in-inning conversation during the Yankees-Red Sox game on ESPN radio.

 

Olney said the Indians are pushing hard for either Escobar or JJ Hardy in a deal. (why when they have Peralta?) but the Brewers are likely not to bite unless the Indians were willing to give up a fading prospect Andy Marte. The current offer is CC Sabathia for OF Matt LaPorta, IF Taylor Green, and RHP John Axford which the Indians are balking at.

 

On a real exciting side note: Olney said regardless of what happens with CC Sabathia the Brewers are likely to get Greg Maddux, possibly before the allstar break. Had no names but I am sure it isn't for much more then maybe Gywnn and a lower level pitcher.

I think the Indians will come back to accepting that deal. It is a really good deal for them and more than I would like to give up. I dont see them getting anything more than that. No way we trade Hardy or Escobar in my mind. Why would we want a guy like Marte who has not been good for the past two years?

 

[RyDogg66]

I say we tell Cleveland to stick it and get Maddux for Gwynn and move on. Especially after reading an Indians board and them saying that the deal should be Lapota, gamel, green, and a pitcher. screw them, let them deal with Philly's crap.

[splitterpfj]

First of all, why do the Brewers even care about Marte?

 

Beyond that, Hardy or Escobar "In a deal" is one thing. Hardy or Escobar in a deal with LaPorta, for a guy who walks in November - is stupid.

[wibadgers23]

Here is your official fresh news update from our friend Buster Olney during an in-inning conversation during the Yankees-Red Sox game on ESPN radio.

 

Olney said the Indians are pushing hard for either Escobar or JJ Hardy in a deal. (why when they have Peralta?) but the Brewers are likely not to bite unless the Indians were willing to give up a fading prospect Andy Marte. The current offer is CC Sabathia for OF Matt LaPorta, IF Taylor Green, and RHP John Axford which the Indians are balking at.

 

On a real exciting side note: Olney said regardless of what happens with CC Sabathia the Brewers are likely to get Greg Maddux, possibly before the allstar break. Had no names but I am sure it isn't for much more then maybe Gywnn and a lower level pitcher.

If the Indians think we're gonna add Hardy or Escobar along with LaPorta and Green, they are nuts. If we could pull off LaPorta, Green, and Axford for Sabathia, I would be fine with that.

[wallus]

I say we tell Cleveland to stick it and get Maddux for Gwynn and move on. Especially after reading an Indians board and them saying that the deal should be Lapota, gamel, green, and a pitcher. screw them, let them deal with Philly's crap.

All of those guys? Yikes.

[southpaw121505]

Thanks for the update madtown. I don't get why they want Hardy either with Peralta. I absolutely don't want to give up anymore than that offer and I'm a bit uncomfortable with it as it is. I don't think they will get a better offer and I'm sure they are just trying to bait us into adding more. I'd stand pat with that deal. If they want Escobar they'd have to add something significant.

 

I also want Maddux in addition to CC, not instead of.

[TheCrew07]

If people are dreaming of signing Sheets and Sabathia... keep dreaming. Sabathia will get a 6 or 7 year deal at over 20 mil per, Sheets will get a 5 or 6 year deal when the bidding is over for around 20 mil per. There are literally only a handful of teams in MLB that can afford those salaries for the tail end of a pitcher's career, and all of them with the exception of Boston need pitching (though you can never have too much pitching).

 

There is no way the Brewers can afford to outbid the years for one players, let alone both and have half their current payroll tied up in 2 players. Yes Milwaukee supports the the team well, but that's what allows the Brewers to have an average payroll to begin with. There are limits to the amount of revenue this market can generate, and we have to be nearing that limit. With attendence closing in on 3 mil, how many untapped resources are left for revenue? I believe the TV contract is up for renewal in the near future and that should help, but seriously, where is the money going to come from?

[splitterpfj]

The other night, Peter Gammons mentioned that Milwaukee would add "One, if not two" starting pitchers.

 

He may be right.

[Josh23fan]

I say we tell Cleveland to stick it and get Maddux for Gwynn and move on. Especially after reading an Indians board and them saying that the deal should be Lapota, gamel, green, and a pitcher. screw them, let them deal with Philly's crap.

All of those guys? Yikes.

My animosity level is rising too. Look at the talent Cleveland would be getting with that proposed deal. If the Indians can't pull the trigger, than forget it. They want us to include Hardy/Escobar ...... go bang your drum somewhere else Cleveland.