The CC Sabathia thread: Latest - CC a Brewer! (part 2)

[jjfanec]

There is a reason why teams dont give up elite prospects for rentals anymore. If Melvin is willing to trade LaPorta he should be making a deal similar to the one Tampa Bay made before the season when they trade Young for Garza. This gave them a great young pitcher that they control for six years. How would most of you feel if we made this same type of deal a few years ago and the prospect going the other way was Ryan Braun. Well LaPorta might very well be the next Ryan Braun and its very stupid to trade that potential away. Even the Yankees realize the value of cheap young talent and even they arent willing to give away players like Matt LaPorta for a rental. Lets hope this deal doesnt happen because it will be a serious blow to the future success of this organization.

There are some major differences in the Young for Garza deal. Young actually had a full-year in the majors unlike LaPorta. Young was also a higher ranked prospect than LaPorta as a minor leaguer. He was 3,3,1, and 3 on the top 100 list his last 4 years. If you look at Garza's stats his first couple times up they were not that impressive. He was actually pretty hittable. I know he had a lot of upside, but if we traded for a guy like Garza but a little lesser of a prospect because LaPorta is a little lesser than Young we would not be getting a who ready to help us a ton this year. He definitely would not be a top tier starter.

 

[MoneyballMan]

Who plays first if we trade Fielder now? Move Hart to first and put Kapler in as a starter?? Platoon situation with Dillion and Rivera??

 

I'm not saying I disagree with it, I'm just curious on what the plan would be then.

I don't think Fielder goes mid-season. This off-season, however, is another question altogether. SF needs him and we'll need good, young MLB-ready SP. It will just be interesting to see if we can snag two or three players for him. Jonathan Sanchez, Brian Wilson and prospect? Too much/too little? Ok, this is probably for the Prince thread....now back to CC.

[JumpinMacFlash]

Roll the dice and let's play some October/November baseball...

 

I agree completely, I'm a fan of trading for Sabathia. I totally understand the reasoning for the Linebrink trade. Anyone could see we needed the bullpen help. At the time, Inman was one of our highest-rated prospects, and people were upset with him being included for what would probably be a rental and maybe only 30 innings pitched. However, about a year later, most of us have accepted that it was necessary, and we do have two prospects out of the deal as well. Now we have people concerned about including LaPorta for a rental of another pitcher. Sure, LaPorta could be a very special player, and I agree with that sentiment. A lot of people thought Inman could be a special player too (I was one of them). I've accepted and better understand the idea of compensation picks for free agents since then and I think about that more during trade proposals. I think, given that year of time, people will still be able to accept and understand the reasoning if LaPorta is traded, much like they have the Linebrink trade.

 

Since joining this site, I've followed the minor leagues a lot more and have gotten attached to prospects. I hate the idea of losing players that I like just as much as Braun and Sheets even though a lot of them may never play for the Brewers. I think about Indians fans and I wonder how some of them felt about trading Sexson, Burnitz, Giles and Casey for parts to their postseason teams. I bet they have to wonder what could have been if those players had stayed, but what would have happened if they weren't traded? Would that run of postseason appearances have occurred? No one knows for sure. It's a different way of looking at things, but the Brewers have never played a postseason game during my lifetime and I would love to see one. I still think they'd be primed for a good run of success even if they trade LaPorta and Green and they can't sign Sabathia after the season.

 

I just know that this whole scenario and season is exciting and it beats the hell out what we've seen lately.

[kramnoj]

Who plays first if we trade Fielder now? Move Hart to first and put Kapler in as a starter?? Platoon situation with Dillion and Rivera??

 

I'm not saying I disagree with it, I'm just curious on what the plan would be then.

 

Brad Nelson has a 921 OPS in AAA and he plays first. Or, if the Brewers traded away Prince instead of LaPorta, they could probably just move LaPorta up. That doesn't sound like that's a current scenario though.

[MoneyballMan]

I'm sure all Cubs fans believe they're "entitled" to CC as well....

I saw one Cubs fan on another site say something like "I would offer anybody in the minors other than Vitters. That would surely beat the Brewers offer."

That sounds about right for a Cubs fan. What exactly would "beat the Brewers offer" Mr. Cubs fan? Anything concrete? They just don't have the prospects and they're bitter. I may not like the idea of giving up LaPorta, but at least we have him to give!! And the Cubs fans reaction may be worth the price of trading him to get CC. Can you imagine?!! "The Cubs are entitled to a World Series" Doesn't everyone know that? As the cuddly, lovable Cubs fan......buries Wrigley Field in trash because a call went the wrong way (or in this case, they didn't get their man.....)

[BrewCrewForever]

If you trade Fielder for Shields or a top prospect there's a hole at 1B that LaPorta fits into very nicely.

Did I miss something? Are you talking about James Shields of the Rays?

[JumpinMacFlash]

I would think that if Prince were traded, it would probably be likely that LaPorta would take over at first. It just seems odd that Melvin would promote someone from AA. There was also talk of Escobar coming from AA. How often has he done that? Not many that I can remember. He's always taken players a level at a time when they get higher up in the minors. I guess there's always exceptions.

[crossface21]

I thought of the idea of bringing a guy up from the minors, but if we get Sabathia and are serious contenders, I'd feel a whole lot better about having a guy who's proved he can hit major league pitching, than putting a guy who's never seen it before in a spot that we would need serious production. On the other hand, if you bring in Nelson, or LaPorta, they could be just like Braun last year. So ya know, whatever. In any case, I don't think there's a chance we see Gamel this year, unless it's in September to be used as a pinch hitter. Too much of a defensive liability.

[bklynbrewcrew]

LaPorta is actually considered to be one of the top 5 prospects in baseball at this time. I am sure that we could get a better return for LaPorta than a guy we are renting for 2 months. As far as signing long term there is absolutely no way Sabathia will be doing that. He has stated that he wants Santana type money and the Brewers are definitely not giving that to him. If CC was willing to take a discount he would have done that in Cleveland where by all reports he is happy. Ben Sheets is a much better value long term than Sabathia and this organization is stupid if we dont sign Ben long term.

 

The best scenario for us is keeping LaPorta and trading Prince this offseason for a top of the line starting pitcher. Then sign Sheets to a 5yr 90 million contract and we are set for years to come. We would have a 2009 rotation of Sheets, Gallardo, Parra, Greinke/Cain/Billingsley and Suppan unless we can somehow dump his contract on someone. The lineup would have LaPorta replacing Prince and possibly Gamel at third base at some point next season. That my friends is a championship caliber team and proof that we dont have to give away a big part of the future to make a run this year.

[endaround]

Or more likely they would hit like Hardy did his first year. Or Weeks did his first year. Or how Gordon did his first year.

[MoneyballMan]

Or more likely they would hit like Hardy did his first year. Or Weeks did his first year. Or how Gordon did his first year.

Good counterpoint. Prospects are prospects until they prove themselves as the MLB level. And let's go a little further - is Weeks ever going to live up to his vaunted prospect status? And until Hardy started raking the last two weeks, many were clamoring for his job!

[jwill535]

Everyone seems to forget this was pretty much the reason Laporta was drafted. The Brewers went on record as saying that he would it was about 50/50 that he would be a Brewer or be trade bait. I am to lazy to look it up but I remember someone(Gord Ash) saying after Matt was drafted, that he would be just as valuable as a trading piece as he would be as a player for the Brewers. Matt is pretty much a redundant player in the org. especially after Lawrie signs.

[jjfanec]

LaPorta is actually considered to be one of the top 5 prospects in baseball at this time. I am sure that we could get a better return for LaPorta than a guy we are renting for 2 months. As far as signing long term there is absolutely no way Sabathia will be doing that. He has stated that he wants Santana type money and the Brewers are definitely not giving that to him. If CC was willing to take a discount he would have done that in Cleveland where by all reports he is happy. Ben Sheets is a much better value long term than Sabathia and this organization is stupid if we dont sign Ben long term.

 

The best scenario for us is keeping LaPorta and trading Prince this offseason for a top of the line starting pitcher. Then sign Sheets to a 5yr 90 million contract and we are set for years to come. We would have a 2009 rotation of Sheets, Gallardo, Parra, Greinke/Cain/Billingsley and Suppan unless we can somehow dump his contract on someone. The lineup would have LaPorta replacing Prince and possibly Gamel at third base at some point next season. That my friends is a championship caliber team and proof that we dont have to give away a big part of the future to make a run this year.

I see a couple of problems with that. We need to do something in my mind if we want to make and succeed in the playoff this year. A playoff rotation of Sheets, Parra, Suppan, and McClung isn't very intimidating. Also, if you trade Prince and bring up LaPorta you will have 8 right handed bats in that lineup. Maybe 7 if you can get a platoon at 3B. Don't get me wrong I have been as big of LaPorta fan as there is, but if Gamel can't stick at 3b he could be the one who replaces Prince at 1B. We could still sign sheets, we could still trade Prince, and we could try to make another trade to either get a lefty CF or 3B. We would have pieces in Hardy or even Weeks to trade if Escobar is ready.

[TheCrew07]

If you trade Fielder for Shields or a top prospect there's a hole at 1B that LaPorta fits into very nicely.

Did I miss something? Are you talking about James Shields of the Rays?

Yes, I'm not high on Cain or Greinke, and longterm Prince fits best in the AL. I tend to look for longterm solutions instead of rental deals.

 

With Price coming up next year he could be replaced in their rotation and he's their 3rd best pitcher behind Kazmir and Garza. We'd still have control of him for 3 years, I really like the Rays as trading partner for SP, I like Toronto and Baltimore as well. I actually want Price who's currently in AA, but I'm not sure the Rays woud do it, even for an eastablished MVP candidate like Prince.

edit. Ry.. trade Prince this off season because he'll never be more valuable than this offseason. The closer he gets to free agency, the less valuable he is to a trading partner, also if he continues to put on weight he loses value as well. It makes sense to trade an established hitter for multiple pitching prospects, and because Prince is the least likely to sign longterm, he's the most valuable asset to move for pitching.

[RyDogg66]

Why are we all talking about trading Fielder? We control him for three more years. He is one of the centerpieces of the offense. Next year's rotation isnt going to be horrible with Gallardo, Parra, Suppan and Bush. Maybe we can even sign Capuano to a minor league deal. I just dont think we need to trade him right now. Maybe after 2009, but he is the main cog in the offense and now we want to blow it all up??

[molitor fan]

Personally I hope that we are renting Sabathia for four months, not 2. The trade as it is proposed seems fair to both sides. Sabathia is a Cy Young winner...he is not Matt Cain from a contract nor from a current/past level of performance perspective. If we want to have a deep playoff run this year, this is the type of trade we simply have to make. LaPorta is a tough guy to give up, as is Green, to be honest. But to simply say a rental is not woth these guys is to be short-sighted as to what this "rental" would provide in terms of real credability for the Brewers in terms of their status as a team to be reckoned with for the post-season, and in the post-season.

 

We need to do a LaPorta/Green/Cain deal, and the Indians would be foolish to turn it down.

[kramnoj]

LaPorta is actually considered to be one of the top 5 prospects in baseball at this time. I am sure that we could get a better return for LaPorta than a guy we are renting for 2 months.

 

How can you be sure that there is a better return that is available right now? Who would be a better return? The team doesn't just want to get a better pitcher to make the playoffs. They want an ace that has a good chance of dominating in the playoffs and going to the WS. Trading away some prospects to get to the playoffs and lose in the first round isn't what the team wants. CC is the best available pitcher in this market, and the Brewers have the best prospects to get him.

 

A playoff rotation of Sheets, CC, and Parra would probably be the best rotation in the playoffs. And if we get incredibly lucky, Gallardo may be available for bullpen help in the playoffs.

[Bruce Ciskie]

Make it so, Mr. Melvin.

 

Let's go for it.

[Trowekamp]

Why are we all talking about trading Fielder? We control him for three more years. He is one of the centerpieces of the offense. Next year's rotation isnt going to be horrible with Gallardo, Parra, Suppan and Bush. Maybe we can even sign Capuano to a minor league deal. I just dont think we need to trade him right now. Maybe after 2009, but he is the main cog in the offense and now we want to blow it all up??

I totally agree.. to think that we would trade one of 3 or 4 guys who can hit 50 HR's is ludicrous.. much less talk about a straight up Sabathia for Fielder Trade.. if we didn't have Fielder and were trying to trade for him we would most likely have to give up Gamel, Laporta, and Braddock to even get close..

 

Or we could probably get Chamberlain AND Hughes/Kennedy from the Yankees in the offseason..

 

The only way I could see a Sabathis for Fielder trade is if they took Suppan, Gagne, AND Hall so we could clear salary to try to sign Sheets or Sabathia long-term.. signing both is also never going to happen..

[JumpinMacFlash]

With Price coming up next year he could be replaced in their rotation and he's their 3rd best pitcher behind Kazmir and Garza.

That might be true, but why would they replace Shields? Why wouldn't they keep Kazmir, Garza, Shields and Price in the rotation and replace one of Andy Sonnanstine or Edwin Jackson? Kazmir signed an extension and they control Garza and Shields for four more years (right?). I don't know why they would trade one of their starters. In the AL East, I don't know why they would want to deplete their major league team. I would like Shields, but I don't know why they would want Fielder. Pena is signed to a reasonable deal and Fielder would cost a lot in the coming years. I would think they would rather invest their money in the pitching.

[Trowekamp]

Or more likely they would hit like Hardy did his first year. Or Weeks did his first year. Or how Gordon did his first year.

Yes! Yes! Yes... it sounds like a lot but we are getting a known quantity versus potential and question marks.. even after the trade the Brewers still have a farm system in the top 3rd..

 

[jjfanec]

I agree with Molitor on this to a point. Looking at the schedule if we do trade for CC in the next day or two we will get about 15 starts from him give or take one. If we make the playoffs we get a couple more. 15 starts of the CC who has shown up the past month over Bush would be extremely valuable to this team. In his last 10 starts Bush has given up 4 or more runs 6 times. He had some nice starts scattered in there as well but that is over half the starts being bad. CC has given up 4 (never more ER) 3 times and two of those were in 8 innings. He has also averaged just under 8 innings his last 10 starts. He not only helps the rotation but he helps the bullpen a ton.

[BrewCrewForever]

Don't get me wrong, I would love to get James Shields. I just don't see any reason the Rays would part with him. I was just wondering if this was a legit rumor or you were just throwing it out there.

[Trowekamp]

I agree with Molitor on this to a point. Looking at the schedule if we do trade for CC in the next day or two we will get about 15 starts from him give or take one. If we make the playoffs we get a couple more. 15 starts of the CC who has shown up the past month over Bush would be extremely valuable to this team. In his last 10 starts Bush has given up 4 or more runs 6 times. He had some nice starts scattered in there as well but that is over half the starts being bad. CC has given up 4 (never more ER) 3 times and two of those were in 8 innings. He has also averaged just under 8 innings his last 10 starts. He not only helps the rotation but he helps the bullpen a ton.

Also helps:

 

- Starting depth in the case of injury

- hitters knowing they don't have to score 8 to win.

- team confidence

- attendance

- other starters knowing they have less pressure

 

Also an true ace in the playoffs is really like 1.5 aces with the off days..

 

[MoneyballMan]

I agree with Molitor on this to a point. Looking at the schedule if we do trade for CC in the next day or two we will get about 15 starts from him give or take one. If we make the playoffs we get a couple more. 15 starts of the CC who has shown up the past month over Bush would be extremely valuable to this team. In his last 10 starts Bush has given up 4 or more runs 6 times. He had some nice starts scattered in there as well but that is over half the starts being bad. CC has given up 4 (never more ER) 3 times and two of those were in 8 innings. He has also averaged just under 8 innings his last 10 starts. He not only helps the rotation but he helps the bullpen a ton.

Also helps:

 

- Starting depth in the case of injury

- hitters knowing they don't have to score 8 to win.

- team confidence

- attendance

- other starters knowing they have less pressure

 

Also an true ace in the playoffs is really like 1.5 aces with the off days..

 

There's the kicker.....Sabathia, Sheets, Parra may be all you need in the playoffs...and two out of three lefties! I'd take my chances with those three.....