The CC Sabathia thread: Latest - CC a Brewer! (part 2)

[sbrylski]

We need to slow down, I can't keep up with the reading! 6 pages since midnight, and one two half rumors...

 

That, and one of the 5 plus one outside the 5 plus one lower level for Sabathia and Perez, yes please.

 

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Continued from:

 

viewtopic.php?p=389383#p389383

 

Original Lead:

 

viewtopic.php?t=13578

[bklynbrewcrew]

I dont want to trade Escobar but I would trade him before I would dump LaPorta. LaPorta is going to be a 30 HR guy and a great replacement for Prince. This organization is acting as if this is our only chance to make the playoffs. We can trade for a guy like Maddux and make a decent run this year. Then we can trade Prince next offseason for a young pitcher like Chad Billingsley or Matt Cain. If we do that we will have a chance to compete for the next several years. Sign Sheets and trade Prince next offseason for a young pitcher is a lot smarter than mortgaging the future on a rental.

[JohnBriggs12]

clancyphile,

 

No knock on Hardy, but Escobar is a far, far better prospect than JJ ever was. Not only as twobrewers points out, he's added power, he also has the dimension of speed.

[twobrewers]

Sign Sheets and trade Prince next offseason for a young pitcher is a lot smarter than mortgaging the future on a rental.

That is exactly how I feel.

 

The Brewers are acting like "this is the year". Well, instead of mortgaging the farm for a 3 month rental to possibly get to the playoffs, we could just sign Sheets to an extension.

 

Signing Sheets to a long term contract has less risk than trading away LaPorta & Escobar would.

 

I dont want to trade Escobar but I would trade him before I would dump LaPorta. LaPorta is going to be a 30 HR guy and a great replacement for Prince.

I certainly see your point. But I prefer a defensive stud than another big stick/little defense player. The Brewers already have plenty of them. (And more in the system)

[clancyphile]

clancyphile,

 

No knock on Hardy, but Escobar is a far, far better prospect than JJ ever was. Not only as twobrewers points out, he's added power, he also has the dimension of speed.

True, but it is not as if the Brewers have a bad shortstop at present in Hardy. If anything, long-term, Hardy would be above average. It's not like Craig Counsell or Royce Clayton is getting 150+ starts at shortstop.

Escobar is a better trade option than Taylor Green at this point.

 

[splitterpfj]

You guys who want Melvin canned if this happens - have you not read the reports of Mr Attanasio pushing these buttons, because he wants to win now?

 

Doug isn't stupid, and he wouldn't make such a radical change in philosophy overnight - he's an employee, apparently with something close to a mandate.

[PeaveyFury]

The idea would be that CC would outperform McClung over roughly 10 starts by . . . 1.5 runs allowed per start (just to make up a number). So the team would save 15 runs by having CC. (Or make up another number -- 20 runs, or whatever.)

 

I know that could make a difference, but how much, really? And at what long-term cost?

 

The rough idea is that 10 runs = one extra win. So using say 2 runs over 10 starts = 20 runs saved, for 2 extra wins. But it's not quite that simple, there's also a trickle-down effect- McClung then goes to the bullpen, replacing Mota. If McClung then performs better than Mota by saving say 10 runs as well, then the Brewers have improved by 3 wins. The difference between say 85-86 wins and 88-89 wins is probably the difference between making the playoffs and sitting home in October.

[PeaveyFury]

One thing that seems to be lost in the discussion of not wanting to trade our two top guys in Gamel/LaPorta is that due to the positions they play, one of them is redundant unless Gamel can actually stick at 3B, which seems doubtful at best at this point. Even if Fielder leaves, that means one of them plays 1B, and the other is left without a position. I'm not convinced whatsoever that Hart can play CF for an entire season, and if that's the case, that leaves one of Gamel/LaPorta/or Hart without a position on the team, again assuming that Fielder is gone for whatever reason before LaPorta and Gamel come up.

[And That]

You guys who want Melvin canned if this happens - have you not read the reports of Mr Attanasio pushing these buttons, because he wants to win now?

All the proof you need of this is the salary that will be added if we don't unload a contract to Cleveland. $4.5 mil is not chump change and if we add Maddux that would be up to another $5 mil.

[recte44]

I feel like we could give up LaPorta and Green and come ahead in the deal. We'd get two high draft picks for CC, and two more for Sheets, essentially replacing LaPorta and Green two fold while picking up a guy who should bring us to a place we haven't been in 21 years. Enough of "waiting for the future". The future is now, I think Mark A. knows it and we all need to come to grips with that as well.

[BrewCrewForever]

If it's LaPorta and another lesser prospect or MLB player fine, pull the trigger lets get it done. But I don't want Gamel or Escobar in that deal anywhere.

[twobrewers]

I guess this is my biggest complaint...

If we are so willing to trade top prospects, why are we doing it now?

We are not division leaders. We aren't even the wildcard right now. We could still very possibly miss the playoffs. (I would say adding CC gives us about a 60% chance of the playoffs)

Unloading the entire farm (LaPorta/Gamel/Escobar & Salome) could have gotten us a Bedard or Haren before the season. Heading into the season with Sheets, Yovanni, and Haren would have made us the World Series favorites. And even with YoGa out of the season, we would still be high in the rankings with Sheets and Haren for the entire season. And then we would still have Yovanni and Haren for next season.

Why did we wait until we are on the verge of missing the playoffs to make a move?

[splitterpfj]

BC in 04 - totally agreed - Escobar in this deal would completely negate the excitement for me. I'd be angry, and nothing more.

 

I think LaPorta and Green is too much to give in the first place, but sometimes that's the way things go, and you never know with prospects.

[And That]

Why did we wait until we are on the verge of missing the playoffs to make a move?

The Brewers couldn't have predicted Gallardo's injury. If he's still healthy, we're not exploring this move IMO. We're probably just going after Maddux/Wolf instead.

 

[berniebrewer4life]

I feel like we could give up LaPorta and Green and come ahead in the deal. We'd get two high draft picks for CC, and two more for Sheets, essentially replacing LaPorta and Green two fold while picking up a guy who should bring us to a place we haven't been in 21 years. Enough of "waiting for the future". The future is now, I think Mark A. knows it and we all need to come to grips with that as well.

This post basically sums up my feelings. Everybody here is worried about the future. Well, i think this might be our best shot in a while to make the playoffs, and i'd like to see us get there and do something. If this move happens, we have 5 picks in the first 35, that's more than enough to get us some more quality bats/arms if we need em.

[pogokat]

we couldn't trade laporta in the offseason and none of the other guys had anywhere near the value they have now..

[BrewCrewWS]

I feel like we could give up LaPorta and Green and come ahead in the deal. We'd get two high draft picks for CC, and two more for Sheets, essentially replacing LaPorta and Green two fold while picking up a guy who should bring us to a place we haven't been in 21 years. Enough of "waiting for the future". The future is now, I think Mark A. knows it and we all need to come to grips with that as well.

+1 With Jack Z. here we will always have a bright future with stocked minor league teams. We have a good shot this year at the playoffs so we might as well make our move now.

 

[berniebrewer4life]

I guess this is my biggest complaint...

 

If we are so willing to trade top prospects, why are we doing it now?

 

We are not division leaders. We aren't even the wildcard right now. We could still very possibly miss the playoffs. (I would say adding CC gives us about a 60% chance of the playoffs)

 

 

You are making it sound like we don't have the 3rd best record in the NL right now, and we are more than 4 games out of first place. If we were a .500 team right now, i'd agree with you. But we are only 2 out of the WC and 4.5 out of first. Heck, by the end of the weekend, we could be within 2 games of first place if everything goes right. The way it looks now is we will be trading one top prospect, and a low level, high roof guy(green) for a proven ace. If we trade two top prospects, we will likely be getting some bullpen help back, which we badly need. It's either that, or wait till next year when we don't have sheets(I don't think we will resign him), and our pitching is even worse.

 

 

[PeaveyFury]

we couldn't trade laporta in the offseason and none of the other guys had anywhere near the value they have now..

 

Exactly. Gamel's status has been boosted a ton by his great 08 so far. Salome had some serious issues that his performance is overshadowing (same with Jeffress), and LaPorta couldn't be traded until a couple of weeks ago.

[splitterpfj]

Why should Cleveland be all over LaPorta and Green? To me, the Indians should say "yes" to that, without another word.

 

Green - .297 AVE, .833 OPS, 10 HR, and solid defense at either 2B or 3B.

 

LaPorta - .291 AVE, .988 OPS, 20 HR, could play a corner OF spot, or 1B

 

Does that beat getting two draft picks? Yes, it does, LaPorta could move up to Cleveland tomorrow if they wanted him to, and Green would be there in 2010. Most of the guess work is done with these guys, two draft picks would have to prove they can do it, these two players have clearly done that to this point.

 

If the Indians want another player included - so do I.

[Tbadder]

I'm not totally convinced about LaPorta, that's why I'd pull the trigger on the LaPorta, Green, low prospect deal. I've had enough of short first basemen who are left-handed much less right-handed. Green will hurt I think, but ya gotta give to get.

 

Long term: I am convinced that Gamel could play 1st though. He's taller, left-handed, and more athletic than LaPorta. Without having to make throws, it really simplifies defense for Mat, and I bet he makes the adjustment easily.

 

I think the Brewers should then put Lawrie at 3rd, shift Hardy to 2nd, and ship Weeks and Fielder for pitching after next year (giving Rickie another chance to break out and spike his value).

 

This scenario would necessitate trading for or signing a starter next year, unless we just take a bullet and stink next year.

[twobrewers]

If we trade for CC Sabathia, we need to make the playoffs.

 

Anything else and this trade would be a failure.

 

LaPorta couldn't be traded until a couple of weeks ago.

I thought LaPorta could be a "player to be named later"?

 

You are making it sound like we don't have the 3rd best record in the NL right now

Even with CC Sabathia - I think the Cubs have a better roster. We still have plenty of flaws. (LH Bats, relief pitching & defense) I don't think the Brewers are as good as their record indicates.

 

Gamel's status has been boosted a ton by his great 08 so far.

Very true. I guess he just hasn't boosted his value that much to me. Take 50 points of his average, and this is about what I was expecting.

[GamelToe]

I think we can only say "but the future" for so long. We NEED to make a move eventually. With Sheets looking like he's gone at the end of the year.. what better time than now?

[tigerbrew]

I'm resigned to losing LaPorta for CC, but please Doug don't include Green too.

 

I don't think Gamel can stick at 3B but Green can, he was moved from 2B to 3B by the Brewers last year partly because of how bad Gamel was defensively. Like Gamel, Green is another valuable lefty bat that we have a shortage of, especially when Prince is gone. I think Gamel probably should be moved to 1B or the OF soon.

[GamelToe]

On a different note.. I'd almost rather give up similar prospects to get a Zack Greinke. More than a rental and still a very solid pitcher.. but I heard the Royals don't wanna let him go.