The CC Sabathia thread: Latest - CC a Brewer! (part 3)

[dlk9s]

I think you guys are reading way too much into what Olney is saying about the trade. He was simply reporting what the Phillies may be offering and why it MIGHT be more attractive to Cleveland than what the Brewers may be offering. He's just saying that if Cleveland can't get what they want out of the Brewers, they might decide they'd rather just receive more players, even if they aren't as good as the Brewers' prospects.

 

I didn't interpret anything he said as wishing the Brewers don't get CC.

[JoeHova]

I'm surprised Melvin has been so candid about all this. It's not like him leaking out who we are offering. None of the other teams have done this, it's all speculation and yet Melvin has talked quite a bit with Haudricourt. It's almost as if they are trying to gauge fan reaction before pulling the trigger.

 

 

That can't be it, imo. I think it's more likely they are trying to make it known what they are offering so that other teams have to make their best offers now and Cleveland can't drag this out till the end of July.

[southpaw121505]

Matt Cain is a plan B? What? If Matt Cain is available, I'd prefer him over C.C. and it's not even close. Cain is signed for three more years.

I was saying the same thing in the chat during the game. If Cain can be had for a similar package, I'd prefer that

[MoneyballMan]

I would assume CC will pitch Tuesday, as that's when he's prepping to start. Also, it could be Bush removed from the rotation.

I disagree. He'd pitch Monday for McClung. Bush wouldn't leave the rotation unless we also get Maddux in a separate deal.

[aintbize]

Look, I am from Philly, I root for both Philly & Milwaukee. Philly cannot carry our jockstrap in these negotiations. The best players the Phillies have are on the field at the major league level. so unless they are putting up someone from the major league team (which I cannot imagine anyone doing for a rental player, especially the ultra conservative Phils)...have faith...this farm system is stacked with talent and we have a lot to offer a team like Cleveland who is in desperate need of POWER (i.e., La Porta & Green).

[JohnBriggs12]

Hu hit about .400/.500 last year in AA, at 23. He's a solid prospect, no doubt.

 

Hu was the single most overmatched hitter I've seen this season. He's a long way from a major league shortstop.

[TheCrew07]

Is it a definite thing that if we get CC and let him walk that we let Sheets walk too? If we can afford him, this shows him we are serious about winning, why would he want to leave? I think if the resign him we can still compete next year regardless of what happens with CC.

Once again, it's not that Brewers aren't able to afford Sheets, it's that should they meet the years on the contract that the big market teams can offer? The Brewers aren't going to be able to sign him for 3 years, a home town discount would be a 4 year deal, but the Yankees or whomever will just go 5 years. Sheets deal is going to be about money and years, not just money. Again, we aren't talking about next year, we're talking about paying him 18-20 Million when he's 36 years old. Power pitchers do not age well, and Ben is a 2 pitch pitcher, though he's been working on that changeup for 3 years now.

 

I'm not mocking you, I just don't get why this is such a difficult concept to understand? We aren't resigning the Ben Sheets of 2004 with 264 strike outs, we're signing a very good pitcher who's beginning to decline. While his ERA is very nice, his K to BB ratio is good, and WHIP is good, I highly doubt he'll be pitching this effectively when he's 36. I can't think of one 36 year old pitcher worth 20 mil/year, and when you factor he has the weirdest injury history of any Brewer pitcher, it's a risk the Brewers simply shouldn't take in my opinion.

 

Sheets has only pitched over 180 innings 3 times in his 7year career, while Sabathia has done it 7 times in 7 years. Santana started in the BP for the Twins but he's pitched over 200 innings each of the last 4 years. Why does this matter? Because I'd rather have a team like the Yankees make the mistake of overpaying for Sheet's ERA than the Brewers being handcuffed to a longterm deal for too much if Ben suffers another "fluke" injury. He just hasn't been durable enough for me to feel secure offering him the type of money and years the big market teams are going to be willing to cough up.

[And That]

I think it's more likely they are trying to make it known what they are offering so that other teams have to make their best offers now and Cleveland can't drag this out till the end of July.

That is 100% precisely it. The Brewers are already going to draw close to 3 million whether they trade for Sabathia or not so it doesn't *really* matter what the fans think about it in terms of this year's attendance. However, they would rather have Sabathia now and not later, and not pay a huge premium for getting him this far in front of the trade deadline. That's why Doug is playing his cards quite far from his vest.

 

[iluvlamp]

This is getting too crazy... Sometimes, when I get nervous, I put my fingers under my arms, and then smell them like this...

[JoeHova]

Hu hit .360/.500 last year between AA and AAA, but it was his second go round in AA and the Dodgers' triple A team (Las Vegas) plays in a notorious launching pad. With those caveats though, he's definitely a nice prospect. He's getting a little old, but I could see a team thinking he'll be a league-average or slightly better SS for a long time.

[brewmann04]

I just hope Melvin said this is it and looks to get on with his next target.

The brewers gm needs to show he smarter than the Indians gm

[Brewer Fever]

The latest from Tom H. within his blog...

 

OK, guys, here's the latest. The Indians are trying to get the Brewers to add another top prospect to their LaPorta offer, such as Escobar or Gamel. The Brewers, who had to gulp hard just to include LaPorta, want them to take lesser players, such as Green and/or Cain. In the meantime, Philly is trying to sneak in and get Sabathia. The Indians will probably tell the Brewers to sweeten their offer or they'll trade Sabathia to Philly. Melvin will have to hold firm and risk losing Sabathia or really give up A LOT to get him. Rather than give up LaPorta AND Escobar or Gamel, they'd concentrate on Plan B pitchers such as Greg Maddux, Randy Wolf and A.J. Burnett. There's only so much you can give up for Sabathia, who is guaranteed to be lost to free agency after the season.

 

If Cleveland wants to take a bunch of A ballers from Philly over LaPorta and and a bunch of A ballers, then tell them to go climb a tree. It might be time to look elsewhere because we're dealing with someone not working with a full deck.

[And That]

I stated this earlier, but I think it bears repeating... LaPorta is the best prospect anyone is (allegedly) offering Cleveland. Trades are generally won by quality, not quantity. I don't know if all the guys we are offering are better than each one of the Dodgers' guys, but we are giving the Indians the best guy. Whether or not you like what the Brewers are giving up, I have a difficult time fathoming how anyone could think they are giving up less than the Dodgers in terms of quality.

 

Edit: In other words, to paraphrase FtJ, Melvin can tell them to take LaPorta and then A ball guys or pound sand.

[iluvlamp]

I can't blame the Indians for trying but that would be robbery. Doug needs to hold firm. What about Greinke?

[TooLiveBrew]

But it seems to be more if the Indians want pitching or hitting. 'Quality' arms could be had from LA, while the only true quality bats they're being offered come from us.

 

 

What about Greinke?

 

That's the part that's a bit confusing about the Indians trying to leverage the Brewers... our offer is the best they'll get, and to be honest, I'd prefer Greinke to Sabathia since we'd have Zach around for 2009 & on. I understand CLE wants to draw out the best offer, but the team that has the leverage in this situation is the Brewers (imo).

[MoneyballMan]

Yep, based on TH's latest, I say let it go. There's NO WAY you include LaPorta AND Gamel or Escobar. That's just crazy talk and DM needs to be (and I believe is) smarter than that. Let them trade him to Philly for a bunch of A prospects. Shapiro can explain that to his boss and the Cleveland fans how he passed on LaPorta for a bunch of guys who never made it to the majors. Screw them.

[Brewer Fever]

I'm starting to think the strength of our farm system is working against us with regards to Cleveland. It's almost as though because we have so many good prospects, Shapiro wants us to part with more than what teams with weaker systems are offering.

[JohnBriggs12]

I'm just going by what I saw of Hu against the Brewers and Cubs. He was completely overmatched. Granted it was only a little over 100 AB's and he had some success at the minor league level, but the Dodgers wouldn't be looking at Jack Wilson if they thought Hu was even close to being average.

[naivin]

I just hope Melvin said this is it and looks to get on with his next target.

That seems to be what's going on. The Brewers want to add whomever they are going to add, now and not later. They also clearly have their sites set on winning the World Series (I can't believe I just typed that), which is why they are going after the guy. It seems as if DM is giving Cleveland's GM a chance to decide if he wants to let LaPorta walk away, as he knows he has the upper hand in this thing. The market for CC seems to be much weaker than anticipated. DM seems willing to pay a bit of a premium for the extra month, but that extra month is clearly important to them, and they will likely get it where they can. Either way, I fully expect someone not currently on the roster to start for the Brewers some time next week.

[iluvlamp]

And That: I just told my brother that the Indians should pound sand. I agree with you completely. I also don't think Melvin in a million years would do it.

[jwill535]

This is starting to look like a game of chicken. I can just see the conversation

 

Doug: "This is our best offer, take it or leave it"

 

Shapiro: "We'll take the Phillies deal, I mean it we will!"

 

Doug: "Fine go ahead."

 

Shapiro "I mean it we will........Ok fine lets deal."

 

Kinda like a teenage threatening to run away.

[thablingster]

If they want a Gamel or Escobar plus LaPorta in exchange for C.C., then I'd want rights to negotiate with Sabathia, which a) wouldn't happen, and b) we probably wouldn't be willing to give him what he wants. So in any case, if that's the word from the Indians I am firmly in the camp which hopes Doug tells the Indians to take our offer or we're done. C.C. may be the king fish in the sea of available pitchers, but with the bait we have to throw out there we could catch multiple fish instead of wasting all of it on one.

[Brewcrewin07]

Damn, don't lose him Doug!!! Here' the thing though. LaPorta is already the best prospect they are being offered, but they are asking the Brewers for another one of their Double AA prospects to get it done?? So they threaten that if they don't get one they will trade him to Philly who can't offer anything close to LaPorta. It's a bluff because it makes no sense. You're asking the Brewers to up their offer(who has the best prospect on the table), but haven't "threatened" Philly to up their offer, yet can't offer anything close to LaPorta?? It makes no sense, and Shapiro is trying to out smart himself. Either way, I am different then most here as I want to be in the playoffs so bad this year I am willing to take the chance, if they want Escobar as well, do it and get it done.

[Team Canada]

If that bit from TH is accurate, and Shapiro does go with Philly, he's an idiot. I trust Doug to stick to his guns and not give in, and we'll make do elsewhere. Heck, we may be tied for the WC tomorrow anyway..

[Brewer Fever]

if they want Escobar as well, do it and get it done.

 

Reading this makes me feel like I've been transported to the ESPN message board.