The Combined 'We're Trading Greinke' Thread (part 3)

[paul253]

Olt is a power hitting middle of the order prospect who can play first base or third base. Acquiring him would allow us to move Hart or Ramirez in the offseason or at the deadline next season as well. I'd be thrilled to get Olt.

[torts]

let Marcum just have wolf's money

[chickinbrickin]

Olt is a power hitting middle of the order prospect who can play first base or third base. Acquiring him would allow us to move Hart or Ramirez in the offseason or at the deadline next season as well. I'd be thrilled to get Olt.

 

I like the way you think. A lot of folks here hoping for Profar are not really seeing Greinke’s true value, and are honestly fooling themselves if they think it is even possible. Why would any GM give up the top 1 or 2 prospect in all of baseball for a non-all-star pitcher who has been really struggling for the past 3 weeks?

 

I would jump all over Olt for Greinke straight-up.

[monty57]

Rumor has it (per Tom Haudricourt) that Marcum would be receptive to a 1 year deal with the Brewers that will allow him to reestablish his value for a longer term deal after 2013.

 

That would be perfect for the Brewers, and it makes sense for Marcum. He's a midwesterner, so he likes it here, and he's probably got one chance left to get a big payday, so he's willing to take some risk in order to get a lot more after an injury-free season.

 

This would make me pretty happy, because (A) I like Marcum, (B) We could really use him next year, and © I was pretty bummed when he got injured, because I figured we'd get a good return for him in trade and the injury nixed that. Now we can get him one more season and trade him next year if we're not in playoff contention.

[zzzmanwitz]

To call Greinke a non-all-star pitcher is kind of ridiculous. He clearly should have been picked to be on the team this year.

[monty57]

Why would any GM give up the top 1 or 2 prospect in all of baseball for a non-all-star pitcher who has been really struggling for the past 3 weeks?

 

That's probably being a little harsh on Greinke, a guy to whom we just offered one of the biggest contracts in the history of the game.

 

I highly doubt Profar is going to get traded for anything, much less a rental, but the Texas situation is that they have lost the last two World Series and are going to lose their best player after this season, so their chances of going back to a World Series after this one is greatly diminished. They have a great young SS at the MLB level who they could easily extend, but their starting rotation needs big help if they want to win now.

 

Again, I doubt Profar is traded, but if there was ever a situation where an elite prospect would be traded, Texas is in that situation.

[TURBO]

If Greinke gets shelled tonight, will this board explode?

[slappzilla]

inevitably

[adambr2]

It's worth noting that the proposed deal for Dempster between the Braves and Cubs is Dempster for Randall Delgado.

 

Dempster and Greinke are similar cases right now -- ace pitchers for their teams that are both strictly rentals right now. I can't think of any good reason that a Greinke rental is worth more than a Dempster rental at this very moment.

 

Delgado is a nice young pitcher, but that's about it. He is not an elite prospect. He is a guy who will probably be a decent cost-controlled #3 pitcher in your rotation for a number of years. I would take it at this point, but the point is that I think those expecting an exciting return for Greinke are going to be in for a world of disappointment.

[slappzilla]

Dumper doesn't want to go

 

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/chicago-cubs-ryan-dempster-does-not-want-trade-atlanta-braves-los-angeles-dodgers-072412

 

and Delgado is arguably a top 20 prospect, fyi.

[PrinceEatMeat]

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/chicago-white-sox-gm-ken-williams-could-make-bold-move-for-zack-greinke-at-trade-deadline-072412

 

This is interesting. White Sox might make a play for Greinke with the Blue Jays as the 3rd team.

[3and2Fastball]

I would be pretty disappointed if we traded Greinke for Delgado. I'm not convinced that Delgado will even be a starting pitcher in MLB. His minor league stats are pretty underwhelming

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=delgad001ran

[JohnBriggs12]

I agree with adambr in that what we know of the Dempster proposal sets the market for Greinke too.

 

Delgado's hardly chopped liver. He's been 38th and 46th on BA's list the past 2 years, and he's got 24 major league starts under his belt with decent results at just 22. Accumulating young pitching opens a lot of doors on the trade front too and with the likes of Delgado, Thornburg, Peralta, Rogers, Fiers, and Burgos, the Brewers would be pretty well stocked with others not that far behind. A steady influx of young talented pitching isn't something the Brewers have had the luxury of and I think it's the key to sustaining success because it allows them to use resources to fill holes in the everyday lineup with something other than marginal journeymen.

[JohnBriggs12]

I would be pretty disappointed if we traded Greinke for Delgado. I'm not convinced that Delgado will even be a starting pitcher in MLB. His minor league stats are pretty underwhelming

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=delgad001ran

 

I don't think Theo Epstein shares your view. He was in AA at age 20 and more than held his own. He was in the big leagues at 21 and did the same thing. Braves are much more aggressive promoting pitchers than the Brewers. His numbers don't blow you away, but he fanned 574 hitters in 543 minor league innings.

[ListachRides]

It's an interesting thought. I'm skeptical about the specifics - the Brewers' system could sure use a guy like Nicolino, but I have a hard time seeing Melvin bite on a package built around an A-ball pitcher - but it's entirely believable that Kenny Williams would do something dramatic to get into the Greinke sweepstakes. I think the Jays' AAA shortstop, Hechavarria, could fit in a hypothetical 3-team deal though not as the headliner.

[SRB]

I have to assume all the anti-Delgado sentiments are just because he's a soon-to-be Cub, right?

 

That White Sox/Blue Jays proposal is depressing; Brewers get a guy at A-ball who wasn't in the top 3 in his own system, plus whatever crap the White Sox have to offer?

 

I really just hope Melvin can get any top-100 caliber prospect at this point, much less dream of getting Mike Olt.

 

(And no, Profar is not getting traded. Greinke is no schlub but there have been plenty of much better pitchers traded in recent years, e.g. Lee and Halladay, who did not get top-5 prospect type returns. Particularly since Texas is just going to be competitive against next year, and the year after, etc.)

[monty57]

and Delgado is arguably a top 20 prospect, fyi.

 

If people admit that players like Delgado and Turner are good, young pitchers, then they would have to admit that good, young pitchers are actually traded. This would then poke holes in the arguement that Melvin could not possibly have traded for good, young pitchers over the past decade because good, young pitchers are never traded. This then dominoes into "the only way we could make the playoffs was to trade our farm system for veterans," and "since you can't prove other trade possibilities existed, then they didn't exist."

 

Melvin chose to always trade prospects for vets and not the other way around. Now we're in the situation where we are pretty much forced to trade at least one sought-after vet in Greinke and I hope Melvin is able to do a god job. I'll be upset (but not completely surprised) if he ends up with a couple of "low ceiling" guys who already have a few years of MLB experience and we hear the justification as "we think with guys like Braun, Hart and Ramirez that we can really compete for the playoffs next year, and the guys we got can step right in and help right away."

[Bnowell4evr]

and Delgado is arguably a top 20 prospect, fyi.

 

If people admit that players like Delgado and Turner are good, young pitchers, then they would have to admit that good, young pitchers are actually traded. This would then poke holes in the arguement that Melvin could not possibly have traded for good, young pitchers over the past decade because good, young pitchers are never traded. This then dominoes into "the only way we could make the playoffs was to trade our farm system for veterans," and "since you can't prove other trade possibilities existed, then they didn't exist."

 

Melvin chose to always trade prospects for vets and not the other way around. Now we're in the situation where we are pretty much forced to trade at least one sought-after vet in Greinke and I hope Melvin is able to do a god job. I'll be upset (but not completely surprised) if he ends up with a couple of "low ceiling" guys who already have a few years of MLB experience and we hear the justification as "we think with guys like Braun, Hart and Ramirez that we can really compete for the playoffs next year, and the guys we got can step right in and help right away."

 

What pitchers have the Brewers had to trade like Ryan Dempster and Anibal Sanchez? Sorry to interrupt your little rant with facts but pitching gets pitching in return.

[3and2Fastball]

What am I missing on Randall Delgado? The fact that he's young and pitched well in 7 games in MLB in 2011? He's pitched pretty poorly this year. His minor league stats show a guy who walks a lot of people and strikes out a lot of people and consistently gives up runs. Manny Parra had pretty similar stats as Delgado at similar ages/levels in A ball and AA. Granted Parra didn't make it to MLB as fast....

[trwi7]

What am I missing on Randall Delgado? The fact that he's young and pitched well in 7 games in MLB in 2011? He's pitched pretty poorly this year. His minor league stats show a guy who walks a lot of people and strikes out a lot of people and consistently gives up runs. Manny Parra had pretty similar stats as Delgado at similar ages/levels in A ball and AA. Granted Parra didn't make it to MLB as fast....

 

3.3 BB/9 is a lot?

[jjfanec]

What am I missing on Randall Delgado? The fact that he's young and pitched well in 7 games in MLB in 2011? He's pitched pretty poorly this year. His minor league stats show a guy who walks a lot of people and strikes out a lot of people and consistently gives up runs. Manny Parra had pretty similar stats as Delgado at similar ages/levels in A ball and AA. Granted Parra didn't make it to MLB as fast....

 

3.3 BB/9 is a lot?

 

To be fair once he got above high A ball he started to walk more guys. 4.5, 3.5, and 4.6 at his last stops. He does strike out a lot of guys though. Above high A he seemed to give up about a hit an inning as well. I dont love the trade as much as some here do but the guy still has really good upside when Dempster is the return. I would have wanted one more player if it was for Greinke, but what do I really know

[monty57]

And no, Profar is not getting traded. Greinke is no schlub but there have been plenty of much better pitchers traded in recent years, e.g. Lee and Halladay, who did not get top-5 prospect type returns. Particularly since Texas is just going to be competitive against next year, and the year after, etc.)

 

So if we went to Texas and offered them Greinke and Braun, they'd say no? I understand Profar is good, is probably not getting traded at all, and is almost certainly not getting traded straight up for Greinke, but never say never. We could always sweeten the deal up by making it a deal centered on Greinke for Profar with us giving up more additional "other pieces."

 

That said, I'd focus on Olt and maybe some pitching, as Profar is probably not going to happen.

[SRB]

Or you just pick up Wolf's option.

 

Nice try, Randy.

[nate82]

If Greinke gets shelled tonight, will this board explode?

 

Yes and you will probably be the one exploding the most.

[paul253]

Brewers get a guy at A-ball who wasn't in the top 3 in his own system, plus whatever crap the White Sox have to offer?

 

Let's not get too carried away with organizational rankings. All of the guys ranked ahead of him were top 100 players. If you were to put Nicolino in the Brewers system he'd probably be a lot higher than 5. He's had a good year this year and would probably start at BC next year. But I don't think he's the type of player Doug Melvin would center a trade around. Melvin's history suggests he'd rather take a player with a lower ceiling who is closer to the majors. That's what frustrates me about him.

 

I wonder if Toronto is interested in making a move. They are only 3 out of the wildcard and have a ton of pitching, albeit mostly at lower levels. Greinke and KRod for Nicolino and Daniel Norris or Aaron Sanchez would be a sweet deal.