2008 Vent Thread (part 2)

[Roscoe Chill]

Lance Berkman is a great player. Without taking age, salary, or anything else in to consideration, I'd rather have him in 2008.

[StatPipes]

dont say anything, just look at the numbers

[TooLiveBrew]

OK... Fielder. Younger, more powerful.

[Ennder]

Weeks has a higher career OPS than Matsui, is younger and has more upside. He is a better baserunner as well. I'm not sure I can see Matsui being better than Weeks. As for Fielder vs Berkman it is pretty close so I'd have to go with the more sure thing in Berkman since Fielder has only done it once.

[Roscoe Chill]

But if you take numbers from 2006, 2007, and so far in 2008, Fielder is not more powerful.

[sheethead]

This team is pathetic right now. Absolutely pathetic. I'm glad I spent less than 30 min on this game. I might start spending less and less time on this team (ala the 07-08 Bucks) until all I am doing is checking the box score and the standings twice a week by mid August. I love baseball, and I love the Brewers, but this is so painful. They aren't even trying to score runs. All they are trying to do is HR Derby. 2007 seems so long ago.

[AJAY]

The opposing pitcher is mowing everyone down, yet nobody tries to bunt their way on.

 

I don't understand this.

[afeter]

The opposing pitcher is mowing everyone down, yet nobody tries to bunt their way on.

 

I don't understand this.

--without their commander and chief you can't expect a brewer to think about bunting on his own. whole new ballgame if our thinking mans manager had not been ejected.

[RyDogg66]

AS much as I hate to admit it, 2008 Astros = 2008 Brewers.

 

Brewers pitching staff = Sheets + 2 scrubby vets and 2 average young guys

Astros pitching staff = Oswalt + 4 scrubs

 

Both bullpens are average.

 

Berkman slightly better than Fielder

Pence = Hart

Lee slightly below Braun

Tejada better than Hall, Weeks or Hardy, no matter who you match up there.

 

They are the same team with the brewers have a slight edge in pitching and astros having slight edge in batting.

[moofnelson]

If hitting coaches don't really do anything, then why are they paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to sit on the bench and do nothing? And, if hitting coaches really do something, then ours sucks.

[RyDogg66]

I thought Wynegar sucked?? Maybe its the players?

[TooLiveBrew]

But if you take numbers from 2006, 2007, and so far in 2008, Fielder is not more powerful.

 

Oh you're right. If you take Prince's rookie season at age 22, his monstrous age 23 season & his slow start, it overall doesn't match up to Berkman's prime age seasons. There's no way that Fielder is going to perform better than someone who is in his age 32 season & getting older.

 

Also, I forgot to mention that it's a total no-brainer to take Weeks over Matsui.

[Roscoe Chill]

Man, Lance Berkman is a great hitter. Always has been. Last year was pretty much his worst year. He's good. If Prince can have a career like Berkman he should be thankful. And Rickie Weeks is extremely overrated around here. Potential? Maybe, but so far he's been bad. No way around it.

[TooLiveBrew]

The only thing there's no way around is the knee-jerk reactions & selective usage of stats lately. 2008 is Rickie's first (hopefully) full healthy season -- so ask yourself if it's wise to ignore the fact that he was just a step back from elite at 2B in 2007... even with a wrist injury holding him back all but the final two months of the season.

 

If you think Prince isn't already a more dangerous hitter than 32-y-o Lance Berkman at this stage in his career, I don't think you could be convinced of anything you don't already believe.

[Roscoe Chill]

Would I take Weeks over Matsui? Yes. But if you're arguing that Rickie Weeks is head and shoulders above someone, then that someone is not a good baseball player. Knee jerk reactions? Come on.

 

Lance Berkman is in the MVP race pretty much every year. Prince Fielder had a great year last year. I said, taking age, salary, and all other factors out of the equation, I would rather have Lance Berkman than Prince Fielder this year. And more than one person agreed with me. Relax.

[RyDogg66]

For this year, age, salary, etc taken out, whose production would you prefer, Id probably take Berkman.

[Roscoe Chill]

And I thought a player's prime was 27?

[moofnelson]

I thought Wynegar sucked?? Maybe its the players?

Is it inconceivable that the Brewers may have hired two crappy hitting coaches in a row? These coaches must provide some service to a baseball team. Or are they glorified cheerleaders? Maddux was treated like a god his first few years in Milwaukee. I don't hear anyone shouting about his greatness anymore.

[xisxisxis]

If you think Prince isn't already a more dangerous hitter than 32-y-o Lance Berkman at this stage in his career, I don't think you could be convinced of anything you don't already believe.

 

OPS+ for each over last 3 seasons:

 

Fielder

2006 110

2007 156

2008 111

 

Berkman

2006 163

2007 131

2008 187

 

Yeah, I guess I must be delusional to think 163, 131 and 187 are better than 110, 156, and 111. Must be my jerked knee interfering with my vision.

 

 

The only thing there's no way around is the knee-jerk reactions & selective usage of stats lately.

 

Seems more of an inability to do math than any knee-jerk response. 163>156, 131>110 and 187>111. It's simple when you know what the squiggly little characters mean.

[rluzinski]

Seems more of an inability to do math than any knee-jerk response. 163>156, 131>110 and 187>111. It's simple when you know what the squiggly little characters mean.

 

The first projection system I looked at basically saw Fielder and Berkman as even for 2008 but if you account for the 100 AB from this year, Berkman is slightly ahead. That said, no projection system put the Astos ahead of the Brewers before the season started:

 

http://www.replacementlevel.com/index.php/RLYW/comments/the_2008_diamond_mind_projection_blowout_pt_2

 

... and even with Yo's injury and the Brewers bad start, I don't think the Astros are a better team overall.

[TooLiveBrew]

But if you're arguing that Rickie Weeks is head and shoulders above someone, then that someone is not a good baseball player.

 

I think you have summed up Kaz Matsui fairly well.

 

Fielder

2006 110

2007 156

2008 111

 

Berkman

2006 163

2007 131

2008 187

 

Yeah, I guess I must be delusional to think 163, 131 and 187 are better than 110, 156, and 111. Must be my jerked knee interfering with my vision.

 

Must be, since you fail to note that Berkman out performed a 22-y-o (hardly shocking), then got outdone by a 23-y-o (incredibly surprising, given Berkman's talent)... and then you're using roughly 100 AB to try to make some form of definitive statement. I know it's 'fun' and all to bash the Crew right now, especially when you leave out relevant details like the fact that both StL & Hou are playing way over their heads & the Brewers are well under theirs. Apparently, that's not a sign that things are likely to get grooving soon for the Brewers... it's a sign that every good player on the Brewers forgot how to be good! Where's my 'sky is falling' cap?!

[valpocrewsader]

My vent: five paragraph non-vents cluttering up the vent thread!

[danzig6767]

That's all I want to say, and maybe this should be in a different thread. I just know I'd rather talk baseball with people that are as passionate as me than argue about how frustrated we are.

I don't post much anymore, but i still read the forums a fair amount. There is a thread on this forum called the vent thread, not the analytical thread, yet for some reason you seem to feel the need to constantly complain that people are venting in a vent thread. Big shocker that there just might be some frustration knee-jerk reactions in a thread titled Vent Thread.

 

So maybe if you'd rather just talk baseball instead of arguing with frustrated Brewer fans that feel like simply venting, don't go in the vent thread and basically tell people not to vent given that's what's going to be in nearly any vent thread. That's why the thread exists and it's not in the Statistical Analysis forum, because when fans vent, it's usually emotion based and those venting didn't feel like checking a few graphs or spread sheets before venting some frustration.

Plus, it's not like there is a shortage of other threads where you can do just what you say you'd rather do, just talk baseball without all the frustrations that are guaranteed to exists in any vent thread on a sports forum.

 

[jason21nl]

I'm going to vent that no matter how much i drink, the brewers still piss me off...and thats a bunch of crap, a bunch of crap I tell ya.. Drinking should take away the sting of a loss

[logan82]

danzig,

His whole point, unless I am reading it wrong, was that most threads are vent threads instead of actual interesting discussions. I agree. I think he also mentioned that anybody with a positive opinion is pretty much being crushed by all the negative posters. Again, I agree. I guess right now it isn't cool to be positive. If the knee jerk reactions were confined to the vent thread it wouldn't bother me, but most new threads seem to be knee jerk threads.