2008 Vent Thread (part 3)

[Jay Zahn]

The Brewers have been the worst in the National League in producing pitchers over the last 10 years.

 

I just don't know about that. I'd be willing to bet we're not the worst. It just always feels that way as a fan. Pitching is hard to produce.

I actually studied this and sadly it's true. The way I did my study is starting in 1998, I looked at all pitchers produced by the system for each team. To be produced by the system the pitcher needs to first pitch in the majors for them. So the Brewers would get credit for Dana Eveland, but not Will Inman. They get credit for Zach Jackson, even though they traded for him, but not Turnbow since he pitched for the Angels first. Just the easiest way to do things.

 

Then I counted "significant" pitchers. My criteria for significance was either relieving in 100 games or starting in 30 - over the course of a major league career. So this is counting players who maybe just played for a couple of seasons.

 

Starting in 1998, the Brewers thus far have produced three pitchers of significance - Ben Sheets, Jorge De La Rosa, and Valerio de los Santos. Two starters, and one reliever.

Here are the counts for all National League teams (players were double counted if they qualified for both starting and relieving:http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

Brewers 2 starters, 1 reliever

Cardinals 7, 8

Reds 5, 7

Astros 11, 6

Cubs 10, 8

Pirates 7, 6

Braves 7, 6

Expos/Nationals 9, 8

Mets 4, 7

Phillies 9, 4

Marlins 12, 10

Giants 9, 10

Rockies 4, 7

Dodgers 5, 5

Padres 9, 3

Diamondbacks 8, 13

 

Now by any measure the Brewers are miles behind the top teams on this list. Sheets has been very good, but I wouldn't say that he's been the best pitcher produced in the National League over the last 10 years. I'd probably take Oswalt, Zambrano, Peavey, Webb, and maybe Beckett all over Sheets.

 

But he is a high quality guy, and maybe he gets the Brewers closer to some of the lesser teams on this list. The Dodgers had just one really good starter in Ishii, but they produced Gagne so I don't think I'd put them under the Brewers. The Mets' best product would be Octavio Dotel, so maybe. Still, they had 11 guys who at least filled spots for them, and they have a bigger payroll. The Pirates best product was Bronson Arroyo, but they produced a whole rotation a few years back in Snell, Gorzelanny, Maholm, Duke, and a closer in Capps, so they've beaten us. The Reds' best would be Scott Williamson and B.J. Ryan from 1999, and no really good starters, and I think that shows us why the Reds haven't had a winning record in a while. So at best we're second or third worst. The new guys in Villanueva, Parra, Gallardo, etc. are only going to get us to where we should be if we want to win over a period of years.

[brewtank34]

Why aren't any of the fans BOOOOOOing Fielder like they do Hall, Tbow, Gagne???????? I personally hate Wisconsin fans for booing our own players...I think it's classless. BUT, if we are going to Boo, where are the Boo's for Prince? He's been just PATHETICALLY BRUTAL.

 

I feel bad for Hall who is a stand up guy who's in a slump...just like Prince, BUT he got the raw end of the deal and Prince is just sitting back and chumping away.

[Baldkin]

Obviously its because Bill Hall signed with the team and Prince hasn't. That's why the boo Hall.

 

Oh wait... that's not a good reason?

[TooLiveBrew]

So the Brewers would get credit for Dana Eveland, but not Will Inman. They get credit for Zach Jackson, even though they traded for him, but not Turnbow since he pitched for the Angels first. Just the easiest way to do things.

 

It's nice to see you actually did some digging on that, instead of just declaring it as an exasperated fan. I don't really agree with your criteria, but it does show that the Brewers have certainly been in the bottom. Leaving out Villanueva & Gallardo really bothers me, since it's very clear they're MLB caliber pitchers (& I'd feel that way about other young arms, too... Cueto & Volquez pop into my head for examples).

 

When you're talking about developing successful pitching, and take VDLR over Gallardo or even Villy, I just think the methodology is off.

[twobrewers]

It will get lost in the shuffle because the Brewers won...

 

But Bill Hall is the worst base runner I have ever seen. (Well, at least for a fast & athletic player)

[logan82]

It will get lost in the shuffle because the Brewers won...

 

But Bill Hall is the worst base runner I have ever seen. (Well, at least for a fast & athletic player)

Yup he is. Kendall ran the bases pretty poorly there as well.

[Glennron]

I was more upset with Kendall than I was Hall on that play. I have no idea how Kendall could've possibly been thrown out in that situation, but that was pathetic.

[Tbadder]

My number one vent this season so far is Ryan Braun's hitting. It's almost gotten to the point where it's a joke. Get two strikes, throw the ball 12 to 18 inches off the plate and he'll swing. If he doesn't smarten up he's gonna be one of those mistake hitters with a good AVG. and a Johnny Estrada OBP.

 

My number two vent this year is the Brewer farm system. There's just no help there. As pointed out above, The Crew simply is incapable of producing pitching talent. And when it does it's afraid to give it a try. (This is changing very slowly, and I'd expect that in three years this won't be as big of an issue.) The Brewer farm system is great a producing sluggers at their position, and power is a very, very, important offensive weapon, but it is not the only weapon. OBP guys are in short supply; guys who can bunt, hit to the right side of the infield, work a count, exhibit plate discipline, etc. are barely there. And defense, thank god for Escobar, if it weren't for him, well, I don't know. Does any major league franchise produce such consistently poor fielders. I do believe that the Brewers will get better in the pitching department if, and only if, they've changed their drafting strategy. This year's draft of going for the big bat first (even though Lawrie doesn't have a real position and will probably be below average defensively) and then loading up on pitching is really sound I think. I hope it continues.

 

I feel the Brewers are almost there as an organization, that they almost grasp the notion that the minor leagues need to produce players every year. Not just the waves that come every three or four years, that they have to produce major league replacements before starters reach free agency so that they can trade those players a year or two before they hit the market, so that they can keep replenishing themselves.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

I've never seen a worse display of calling balls and strikes this season than tonight. Tim McClellan has to be one of the game's worst. It's time to DFA him from the umpire field.

[Jay Zahn]

So the Brewers would get credit for Dana Eveland, but not Will Inman. They get credit for Zach Jackson, even though they traded for him, but not Turnbow since he pitched for the Angels first. Just the easiest way to do things.

 

It's nice to see you actually did some digging on that, instead of just declaring it as an exasperated fan. I don't really agree with your criteria, but it does show that the Brewers have certainly been in the bottom. Leaving out Villanueva & Gallardo really bothers me, since it's very clear they're MLB caliber pitchers (& I'd feel that way about other young arms, too... Cueto & Volquez pop into my head for examples).

 

When you're talking about developing successful pitching, and take VDLR over Gallardo or even Villy, I just think the methodology is off.

I just picked criteria that seemed meaningful. 30 starts is about a season's worth of games. I went a little higher on relievers since it's easier to pick up 60-70 games and not really put in a full season for anybody.

 

Eventually barring injury Villanueva, Gallardo, and Parra are going to be included in the counts as will Eveland given my criteria. So the picture will improve. My main point (and the reason I looked at it) is that even with those additions the depth still isn't that great because of the black holes before and after Sheets.

[secondsith]

I've never seen a worse display of calling balls and strikes this season than tonight. Tim McClellan has to be one of the game's worst. It's time to DFA him from the umpire field.

I don't even know how he can get away with the way he signals balls and strikes. I thought that game speed was improtant to the league. How much does Tim slow the game down when it takes 5 seconds (maybe a little exageration) to know if he called a ball or strike. It also seems to me that he looks for a confrontation just so he can throw somebody out of the game. Why is he following Braun back to the dugout when Braun questioned a strikeout call? Leave it at the plate, there is no reason to follow him to the dugout. Quit trying to show up the players McClellan, you are just an umpire, no one comes to the game to see you and your lazy delayed strike calls.

[RU Rah Rah]

My number one vent this season so far is Ryan Braun's hitting. It's almost gotten to the point where it's a joke. Get two strikes, throw the ball 12 to 18 inches off the plate and he'll swing. If he doesn't smarten up he's gonna be one of those mistake hitters with a good AVG. and a Johnny Estrada OBP.

I hate to complain about him, but, yeah, it's pretty bad sometimes. What's weird to me is that we hear about how they study film, look at pitchers' tendencies, etc., etc. And yet . . . he'll chase that down-and-away two-strike pitch pretty much every time.

I'm assuming that he'll figure it out eventually, though. He's still a lad.

 

[TooLiveBrew]

Quit trying to show up the players McClellan, you are just an umpire, no one comes to the game to see you and your lazy delayed strike calls.

 

On top of all that bravado, he stinks at balls & strikes. He had the dreaded 'floating zone' last night, and that's certainly not the first time I've seen that from him. Thank goodness we won't have him behind the plate for a while again. That was brutal -- especially for a pitcher like Seth, who has BB WOAHs anyway. I just felt bad & sorry for McClung last night as he sat in the dugout after getting yanked, head in hands, just bewildered & lost-looking. Hang in there Seth!

[Brewer Fever]

This team is going nowhere until they start learning how to hit pitchers the likes of Glendon Rusch. Good teams do not struggle this often against the very worst in the game.

[Tbadder]

I just hope the Crew has been watching the Rockies closely. They are professional hitters. They have brains and discipline. The Brewers just don't possess these attributes/abilities. I was so excited this week for the Brewers...for the first time in years I thought "well, maybe you've got it all wrong...maybe they will be competitive." But just like last year--they don't want it. They don't want to win. Oh sure, in their hearts they want to win, but without the desire to actually change their approach, they're just kidding themselves. And no I don't care if they come back and win tonight. They showed how immature they are; how ridiculous they are. Just grow up! Even Sheets. He doesn't throw that hard normally. What is he trying to prove? He gassed himself--thatta way to use your five-cent head! I kept flipping between the Brewer game and the Cards game. Guess which team had a reason for each move they made? Guess which team had purpose, thoughtfulness. Guess which team willingly did the small things. Guess which team showed strike zone judgement even when they were getting mowed down. Hopeless. I feel sorry for Yost and his coaches.

[brains and braun]

I have seen quite enough Guillermo Mota. This was a game we should have won. I will now leave to barf and get the taste of the Brewers out of my mouth.

[TooLiveBrew]

The fact that any or all of Melvin & Co, Yost, & Maddux think that Guillermo Mota can pitch meaningful innings, let alone be the (moronic) '8th Inning Guy' is incredibly disturbing. Yost gets the most of my ire for being the moron that sticks with him, making sure to do so in higher-leverage innings.

 

GET RID of Mota in any game where the margin is 5 runs or less in either direction. Garbage innings for a garbage pitcher http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/mad.gif

 

 

I'll naively hope that tonight is the last the Brewers have to suffer with a hack like Mota pitching a tight game in the 8th inning.

[AJAY]

Mota stinks. Get him out of here. I am sick of him killing our bullpen and hurting our chances to win.

[pitchleague]

Mota for the last few outings has been no better than Julian Tavarez when he was here. Tavarez got DFA'd and so should Mota.

 

Sure there was some bad "luck" in his last 2 appearances in ARZ and tonight but still, results are results and he's not getting the job done right now.

[TooLiveBrew]

I disagree on 'bad luck' as applied to tonight. When you throw meatballs & hanging sliders, there's really not much need for luck for MLB hitters.

 

Time to stop the bleeding. If Yost won't remove our worst RP from one of the highest-leverage roles, then it's time to remove Ned.

[Postseason2006]

That is my one big complaint against Ned. It his confidence in guys that are horrible.

 

I never thought a player could be worse than Estrada but Doug found him in DeMotaed.

[danzig6767]

I'll naively hope that tonight is the last the Brewers have to suffer with a hack like Mota pitching a tight game in the 8th inning.

I posted in the silver lining thread after the last Mota outing that the one bright spot could be that the Mota experiment was finally over, unfortunately not.

I guess we won't hear Ned talk about how Mota battles and weasels out of all the batters he puts on because "he's been there before" and doesn't give in. Way to much putting value on experience over being able to get hitters out.

An ugly ugly thought, we are paying Gagne/Turnbow/Riske/Mota about 20 million dollars this year to be the back end of the bullpen. relievers.

 

[tigerbrew]

We just got Yosted again tonite and I'm afraid we might get Yosted out of the playoffs again like last season. Stupid Ned and his 8th inning guy Mota should be gone immediately!

[TooLiveBrew]

I can't put the blame for tonight on Yost. I can, however, put the blame each & every time Meatball Mota gets shelled in a close game in the 8th. Yost has good bullpen options, but unless they're placed into a freaking color-coded chart for him so he doesn't have to think, he might as well have a 'pen full of Motas.

[Fear The Chorizo]

The Brewers traded away a garbage player in Estrada to pick up Mota, who has proven to be a garbage player as well

 

garbage in = garbage out, and I'm really hoping I don't have to see him pitch when the game is remotely in question anymore. The Brewers have put too much at stake in this season to have what amounts to a scrap-heap acquisition continually blow games that the Brewers are winning or have a chance to win.

 

I don't care what they're paying him, right now Mota's more valuable to the team if he's not on it.