Ned Yost Yay or Nay thread: Hardball Times rips Yost (part 2)

[Fatter than Joey]

clearly he doesn't grasp how Turnbow works yet, which is also unfathomable.

 

This is the real head-scratcher for me -- I am not so opposed to running Tbow out there, but at some point this season, you would think Yost & Co., would get the same bad feeling that we get when the Tbow trolley is headed for derailment.

 

I understand how you feel that most other managers also make questionable moves - what I fail to comprehend is how you write off Yost's continual failings as, "well, other managers make mistakes too."

 

I agree. This sort of logic would be like having a .200 hitter at some position and dismissing talk of an upgrade because a .300 "fails 70% of the time".

 

The difference I think now for the Brewers, is that they have a team that managers may want to manage. In the last couple of decade, we haven't had talent that we have now. I am pretty sure that the hiring pool is a lot deeper now, than it was when Ned was hired.

[endaround]

endaround wrote:

---

I don't understand the criticism of allowing Hall to bat. Yost's choices were Jenkins/Gross vs Grabow or Estrada both situations hardly a huge improvement when trying to avoid a GIDP. Now allowing Jenkins vs Grabow to occur when RHs are hitting .296 vs Grabow and LHs .236, well thats another story.

 

My beef with letting Hall bat in the 8th with one out and runners on the corners was because it just delayed the inevitable. Why not PH Jenkins, then switch to a RH batter before Hall K's? Why wait until there are two outs to force Tracy's hand. Bill Hall should not have hit in that position, and just might be on his way to a career platoon type player. Although, he even looked awful against a lefty yesterday.

 

Ned never forces the hand of the opposing manager, which is why he is out-managed almost on a daily basis. If Ned's players don't execute the way he foresees them to, it's game over.

The only right handed batters left were Estrada and Rivera. Which when you are trying to avoid the GIDP are the last two guys you want hitting.

 

[sheethead]

The only right handed batters left were Estrada and Rivera. Which when you are trying to avoid the GIDP are the last two guys you want hitting.

I'd take Rivera against a lefty over Jenkins/Hall any day this year, but I can see how this would be debateable.

[Team Canada]

endaround wrote:

---

I don't understand the criticism of allowing Hall to bat. Yost's choices were Jenkins/Gross vs Grabow or Estrada both situations hardly a huge improvement when trying to avoid a GIDP. Now allowing Jenkins vs Grabow to occur when RHs are hitting .296 vs Grabow and LHs .236, well thats another story.

 

My beef with letting Hall bat in the 8th with one out and runners on the corners was because it just delayed the inevitable. Why not PH Jenkins, then switch to a RH batter before Hall K's? Why wait until there are two outs to force Tracy's hand. Bill Hall should not have hit in that position, and just might be on his way to a career platoon type player. Although, he even looked awful against a lefty yesterday.

 

Ned never forces the hand of the opposing manager, which is why he is out-managed almost on a daily basis. If Ned's players don't execute the way he foresees them to, it's game over.

The only right handed batters left were Estrada and Rivera. Which when you are trying to avoid the GIDP are the last two guys you want hitting.

 

 

Yes, however, if you PH Jenkins for Hall, then the Pirates bring in Grabow, which Ned let Jenks face anyway. Then the next batter you bring in someone else (Estrada, Rivera, whatever), and you don't have to worry about a GIDP, because Jenks already made the second out. I think sheethead makes a great point. If Jenks is going to face Grabow anyway, he should have PH for Hall, not the pitcher.

 

[endaround]

endaround wrote:

---

I don't understand the criticism of allowing Hall to bat. Yost's choices were Jenkins/Gross vs Grabow or Estrada both situations hardly a huge improvement when trying to avoid a GIDP. Now allowing Jenkins vs Grabow to occur when RHs are hitting .296 vs Grabow and LHs .236, well thats another story.

 

My beef with letting Hall bat in the 8th with one out and runners on the corners was because it just delayed the inevitable. Why not PH Jenkins, then switch to a RH batter before Hall K's? Why wait until there are two outs to force Tracy's hand. Bill Hall should not have hit in that position, and just might be on his way to a career platoon type player. Although, he even looked awful against a lefty yesterday.

 

Ned never forces the hand of the opposing manager, which is why he is out-managed almost on a daily basis. If Ned's players don't execute the way he foresees them to, it's game over.

The only right handed batters left were Estrada and Rivera. Which when you are trying to avoid the GIDP are the last two guys you want hitting.

 

 

Yes, however, if you PH Jenkins for Hall, then the Pirates bring in Grabow, which Ned let Jenks face anyway. Then the next batter you bring in someone else (Estrada, Rivera, whatever), and you don't have to worry about a GIDP, because Jenks already made the second out. I think sheethead makes a great point. If Jenks is going to face Grabow anyway, he should have PH for Hall, not the pitcher.

 

See, I'm assuming rational actors here. Allowing Jenkins to face Grabow is just stupid, and even there Jenkins/Gross increases you GIDP chance (see the ball Jenkins did hit off Grabow). If you're pulling Hall and Grabow comes in you should pull Jenkins and get to Estrada. Now you have to pinch hit Gross 9th and your bench is down to Stockman, Gwynn, and Nix in a tie game in the 8th. Again its not a slam dunk to pull Hall when doing so burns 4 players. Now Jenkins vs Grabow with the bases load is another matter....

 

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

I don't have a huge beef with leaving Hall in. It was a tie game, it would have burned a few bench players...and Billy has got to be able to perform in that situation. A move was probably a neutral. The Turnbow thing is another matter. The guy was gassed, which really became evident after the walks. It still would have been an effort for anyone, including Cordero to get out of it, but it was obvious T-bow was done. I believe a large portion of Turnbow's blowups can be traced to overuse. I realize there have been times when options were limited this year and Ned had to go with T-bow on no rest...but not yesterday.

[sheethead]

See, I'm assuming rational actors here. Allowing Jenkins to face Grabow is just stupid, and even there Jenkins/Gross increases you GIDP chance (see the ball Jenkins did hit off Grabow). If you're pulling Hall and Grabow comes in you should pull Jenkins and get to Estrada. Now you have to pinch hit Gross 9th and your bench is down to Stockman, Gwynn, and Nix in a tie game in the 8th. Again its not a slam dunk to pull Hall when doing so burns 4 players. Now Jenkins vs Grabow with the bases load is another matter....

 

I will admit, PHing for Hall yesterday is questionable. What tips the scale for me is that Hall looked like he was mailing it in yesterday. I would have probably PH Gwynn instead of Jenkins, hoping Tracy doesnt see the need to go to the pen and finding the best way to stay out of the DP. Where is the out of the box thinking? With the infield at DP depth, a squeeze would have been nice imo. There is no creativity in the dugout. No inspiration. I don't see inspiration. All I see is stale managing. Predictable and stale. Unfortunately its predictably bad, routinely.

[bklynbrewcrew]

Its really as simple as this for me; the Brewers have by far the most talent in the division yet they are fighting tooth and nail to win the division. This team is clearly underachieving and that falls on the shoulders of Yost. The fact that this team still hasnt learned to win on the road is a function of the manager and his lousy game day decisions. This team is good enough in my opinion to win 90 games in the NL. Therefore lets stop wasting time with Yost and bring in Frank Kremblas to replace him. The young Brewers all seem to love Kremblas and from everything I read he knows how to strategically manage a game. Playoffs or not this season Yost has done more harm than good for this team and its time to send him packing.

[RU Rah Rah]

I don't have a huge beef with leaving Hall in. It was a tie game, it would have burned a few bench players...and Billy has got to be able to perform in that situation. A move was probably a neutral. The Turnbow thing is another matter. The guy was gassed, which really became evident after the walks. It still would have been an effort for anyone, including Cordero to get out of it, but it was obvious T-bow was done. I believe a large portion of Turnbow's blowups can be traced to overuse. I realize there have been times when options were limited this year and Ned had to go with T-bow on no rest...but not yesterday.

My feeling exactly. I wouldn't be too quick to fault Ned for thinking that one of his starters could at least put the bat on the ball (which Hall failed to do). But the Turnbow decable was just an accident waiting to happen.

 

[sheethead]

I wouldn't be too quick to fault Ned for thinking that one of his starters could at least put the bat on the ball (which Hall failed to do).

Usually I would agree with this, but not in-game yesterday. Hall was a tremendous long shot to get the job done.

[Team Canada]

I wouldn't be too quick to fault Ned for thinking that one of his starters could at least put the bat on the ball (which Hall failed to do).

 

Usually I would agree with this, but not in-game yesterday. Hall was a tremendous long shot to get the job done.

 

Exactly. In the grand scheme of things, you should be able to say "Billy's got to get the job done in that situation", but given the game he had, it was foolish to expect a suddenly different result.

[TooLiveBrew]

Its really as simple as this for me; the Brewers have by far the most talent in the division yet they are fighting tooth and nail to win the division. This team is clearly underachieving and that falls on the shoulders of Yost. The fact that this team still hasnt learned to win on the road is a function of the manager and his lousy game day decisions. This team is good enough in my opinion to win 90 games in the NL. Therefore lets stop wasting time with Yost and bring in Frank Kremblas to replace him. The young Brewers all seem to love Kremblas and from everything I read he knows how to strategically manage a game. Playoffs or not this season Yost has done more harm than good for this team and its time to send him packing.

You're a bit biased here, bkbc. I don't think at all that we have the obvious highest overall talent level in the division. At this point in the year, taking pitching into the equation, I think the edge there goes to the Cubs - as hard as that is to admit. Do we have the highest number of young(er) and/or up-and-coming players? Unquestionably. But let's not forget that the Cubs have a pretty nice set of established star veterans, and to augment that they have a solid group of role players (position-player-wise). We have advantages over them at certain positions, but I'd say overall our best outcome is a wash.

 

I know the season can be frustrating, and I'm certainly guilty of letting that color my emotions at times. But to suggest that this team was or is or at any time this year will run down 90 wins is placing the expectations too high - thus your feelings of underachievement. Don't let your own slightly overblown expectations (not meant to offend, just don't know how else to say it) make a villain of Yost. While his poor in-game decisions have definitely resulted in some losses at this point (don't know the metric, but if there's one that converts errors to runs to losses, I'm sure we can agree that Ned's mistakes have added up, too), he certainly hasn't been responsible for more than - at most - maybe 5.

 

The problem with that, even though it's such a small number, is that our division is so tight. Thankfully the Cards finally look to be in a swoon (at the wrong time of year), but being neck-and-neck with the Cubs magnifies everything. I don't know whether I do or don't agree with your 'more harm than good' categorization, but I do agree with you that regardless of the outcome, an upgrade at the manager position will be available this offseason - and that it's time to make a change. Trouble for me is that I don't get to watch enough outside coaching to really have a feel for different guys' strategies. I know Automator has mentioned Davey Johnson, and that BTA has followed the Orioles - what's Johnson's strategy like - consistent decision-making, or plaaying hunches? Anyone else know more about a guy than, "He coached the _____s"?

[logan82]

At what point is one option drastically different enough to warrant a move.

 

When the current option proves - time after time - that he has an incredibly difficult time identifying the correct move in many different situations.

I meant in game decisions.

 

 

[TooLiveBrew]

me too, logan.

[sheethead]

While I think 90 wins may have been a reach for the Brewers this year, it was entirely doable. Sure not expected to start the year, but expectations can change as a season progresses. I would say 5 is an accurate estimation on how many wins Ned's badness has cost the team. Could be more, could be less. The fact that it is that many games speaks volumes for his badness. Put 5 in the W column and take 5 away from the L, and you have 79-66. Exactly where my adjusted expectations had them. Have I mentioned i'm sick of the sight of Ned since he told the fans they basically don't know baseball and to calm down? Yay for the day Ned is gone, yay for the day.

[logan82]

Just to claify since I though you were refering to Yost being manager.

 

At what point in a game is one option drastically different enough to warrant a move.

[bigredrobbo]

Any excitement at actually playing meaningful games in September is diminished by the broken-record braying that perpetuates most of this thread...

 

At this stage, nobody is changing their mind and the evidence in both camps to support their opinions is becoming laughable. Man, we suck at success - we should go back to just sucking...

[TooLiveBrew]

this is exactly why we will never agree, logan. I think any amount of advantage that a manager can add to his team's chances to win is valuable, you tend to postulate that since nearly any margin can be described as small, it doesn't really matter what the manager does. It's essentially like saying that winning 12 out of 20 games is just as good as winning 14 out of 20 games, since it's a small difference. And no, that's not a reference to Yost, just a numerical example.

 

EDIT: so don't view the thread anymore, robbo. Your condescending tone isn't exactly a positive contribution to what is a serious discussion - whether you like said discussion or not. I would never presume to tell you what you think is important, nor would I mock you for it.

[logan82]

TLB

I really don't think we are that far off on our opinions. Like you said we both think the difference a manager makes is relativley small. I think the difference is that, sorry if I put words in your mouth here, you belive that another manager would win or not lose us those 2 games and I am not convinced. I also think you have already made up your mind that Yost should be gone and I am reserving judgement until the season is over.

[TooLiveBrew]

no - my "12/20 v. 14/20" was simply to illustrate how you describe the differences in the choices Yost has available to him in-game - that one option is only a little better than another, so the move being made or not doesn't really matter. It has nothing to do with 'Yost vs. some other manager' - sorry, thought my disclaimer made that clear. http://static.yuku.com//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/smile.gif Fwiw, I think his pattern of poor decision-making has cost us more than 2 games this year, and I tend to believe that he's been doing this for years now, not just this one - which is why I submit my verdict before the end of this year.

[sheethead]

Believe it or not, I am both excited about the race and displeased with the managing at the same time. Granted my excitement would be greater if the Brewers had a good manager, but that seems to be a positive correlation seeing how I would like the team to win more games.

[logan82]

no - my "12/20 v. 14/20" was simply to illustrate how you describe the differences in the choices Yost has available to him in-game - that one option is only a little better than another, so the move being made or not doesn't really matter. It has nothing to do with 'Yost vs. some other manager' - sorry, thought my disclaimer made that clear. http://static.yuku.com//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/smile.gif Fwiw, I think his pattern of poor decision-making has cost us more than 2 games this year, and I tend to believe that he's been doing this for years now, not just this one - which is why I submit my verdict before the end of this year.

I know that it was used to illustrate the difference.http://static.yuku.com//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/smile.gif I am also not disagreeing that Yost has cost us games. I just disagree that another manager would definitely be better.

 

I just think that when anybody is talking about in game moves that the decision is not about which is the better choice, but at what point that better option will make enough of a difference that it should be made.

[TooLiveBrew]

aha - and I say that is "at all times," and you say, "every great once in a while"? Do I actually understand my enemy? http://static.yuku.com//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/smile.gif

 

I just view that chance, however slight, as being the responsibility of the manager to create whenever possible, as opposed to when he feels like the time is right, and think that we certainly will be able to upgrade in this regard.

[logan82]

"I just view that chance, however slight, as being the responsibility of the manager to create whenever possible, as opposed to when he feels like the time is right, and think that we certainly will be able to upgrade in this regard."

 

The thing is that when you look at how closers are used across all of MLB, most are not being used in the best places. Is it more important to use your best reliever in the 9th with no outs up by 3 runs or in the 6th with the bases loaded, no outs and up by 1 run? So when you look at it, managing is done more as an art than a science.

[DougJones43]

Any excitement at actually playing meaningful games in September is diminished by the broken-record braying that perpetuates most of this thread...

Why the heck are you reading the "Ned Yost: Yay or Nay" thread, if ongoing debate about Ned Yost bothers you so much? The thread actually dimishishes your excitement for the pennant race, and yet here you are reading and posting in it. You must be a glutton for punishment.

 

 

Man, we suck at success - we should go back to just sucking...

 

74-71 (49-58 since May 15th, 29-45 in road games) and second place in a crappy division is success? You'll have to excuse me if that kind of success by Yost and the Brewers doesn't exactly knock my socks off.