Ned Yost Yay or Nay thread: Hardball Times rips Yost (part 2)

[Jay Zahn]

Who was Yost to bring in for Turnbow? Linebrink probably wasn't available, Shouse is gone, it's a tie game so even if Cordero pitches the eighth and ninth then who do you bring in? The rest of the bullpen is pretty sorry, except maybe Wise gets another shot considering the other options. Maybe Capuano could get through part of an inning without giving up a dinger, but that's only a maybe.

[TooLiveBrew]

I didn't get a chance to view the game today, but it sounds like the issue is that even though it was painfully clear TBow wasn't working, Yost refused to try something else. Especially relevant is Derrick working after pitching yesterday - which has already been well-covered. Yes, perhaps Wise hasn't been delicious - but when Turnbow is off, he's off (sounds like this was the case today) - but why not make the move to try something else? Sure, maybe Wise wouldn't have had success, but Turnbow was visibly not going to, either, and no surprise - he didn't. Why leave your players/team in a situation that is less than your best chance to win?

 

Even if some feel Wise was an equal option to Turnbow's suckiness, at least you try to change the scenario for your team by making a change away from a pitcher who clearly was in trouble. I agree Ned falls into his so-called "_th inning guys" rut far too often. Yes, Linebrink wasn't available, nor was Shouse, but both McClung (I think) and Wise should have been, so why not try another avenue - when it's painfully obvious the (then) current one isn't working? (btw, this is by no means an endorsement for McClung - just stating he was possibly available)

 

Fwiw, the whole 'well-paid veterans' logic is identical to the '_th inning guy' logic, and should not be endorsed in any situation. When there's a better option available, and each game is so important, you can't coddle guys' egos.

 

EDIT: Perhaps CoCo was another choice

[logan82]

This sounds like when Yost brought in Aquino at the end of the inning except in opposite.

[trwi7]

Who was Yost to bring in for Turnbow? Linebrink probably wasn't available, Shouse is gone, it's a tie game so even if Cordero pitches the eighth and ninth then who do you bring in? The rest of the bullpen is pretty sorry, except maybe Wise gets another shot considering the other options. Maybe Capuano could get through part of an inning without giving up a dinger, but that's only a maybe.

 

Uhh Linebrink was warming up in the 7th and 8th. So if by probably you mean was you're right.

[bsglorydays]

This sounds like when Yost brought in Aquino at the end of the inning except in opposite.

Actually, that's well put - in that, it illustrates that no matter what happens, if the Brewers lose, Yost somehow mishandled the bullpen in the minds of many here.

[jason21nl]

bsglorydays[/b]]

logan3825[/b]]This sounds like when Yost brought in Aquino at the end of the inning except in opposite.

Actually, that's well put - in that, it illustrates that no matter what happens, if the Brewers lose, Yost somehow mishandled the bullpen in the minds of many here.

 

and yet some how no matter how bad yost mishandles the bulpen, there are some here that still think Yost can do no wrong.

[logan82]

bsglorydays[/b]]

logan3825[/b]]This sounds like when Yost brought in Aquino at the end of the inning except in opposite.

Actually, that's well put - in that, it illustrates that no matter what happens, if the Brewers lose, Yost somehow mishandled the bullpen in the minds of many here.

and yet some how no matter how bad yost mishandles the bulpen, there are some here that still think Yost can do no wrong.

 

Good luck finding somebody who thinks that.

[DougJones43]

This sounds like when Yost brought in Aquino at the end of the inning except in opposite.

 

I must be missing something. Care to explain the correlation between the two situations (other than the fact that they were questioned by fans)?

[logan82]

This sounds like when Yost brought in Aquino at the end of the inning except in opposite.

 

I must be missing something. Care to explain the correlation between the two situations (other than the fact that they were questioned by fans)?

 

That is the whole point of what I was saying. Yost is questioned on every move he makes at this point in the season. It is just the attitude that people seem to take every move as being right or wrong that bothers me. Some moves are better than others, but it is just degrees. If Yost does something one way he gets blamed for the loss. He makes the move the other way the next time and still gets blamed. At this point some people just have Yost hate blinders on. People are entitled to that opinion. I just think there should be some blame spread out to the players and a little less on the manager.

[TooLiveBrew]

logan, what you and other Yost apologists miss (at least in regards to me, personally) is that I don't place the entirety of the blame on the manager. However, you continue to ignore the validity of legitimate Yost criticisms, and lump anything into this, "Ya'll's sum hatas!" type arguments. Please don't tell me I'm ignorant. One reason why I have so many complaints with Yost is that I follow this team very closely, every single day, and see the repeated mistakes. Just because you think Yost is a good manager doesn't mean that anyone who doesn't has on "Yost-hate blinders." It's equally possible that you have on some kind of 'No matter how many games/situations he bungles, Yost is still fine' blinders, yet I don't find it necessary to make such a ridiculous claim.

[DougJones43]

If Yost does something one way he gets blamed for the loss. He makes the move the other way the next time and still gets blamed.

 

I don't see how the Turnbow thing classifies as "the other way" from the Aquino thing. You're implying that the two moves are somehow intertwined, and in reality, they aren't. Are you saying that if Yost makes two totally unrelated decisions, 10 days apart, that fans can only criticize one or they're somehow being unfair? Isn't it possible that his handling of both situations was poor? They're not mutually exclusive.

[Team Canada]

I used to like how Yost would throw out splits all the time in his postgame comments, but I'm really starting to wonder if A) he doesn't understand how to use them, or B) he just does whatever he wants and then throws out some applicable split to support his preconceived plan.

 

Today for instance, how do you say with a straight face "well Billy was 4-11 vs this pitcher, so that's the matchup I wanted", when the whole world saw how absolutely pathetic his ABs were today, and knew he needed to be PH for?? If he thinks that 11 ABs versus a pitcher actually mean anything, then he shouldn't even be allowed to look at splits. I can accept that he didn't want to use Gross because they'd send Grabow right in, and Gross isn't very good vs lefties (not that that stopped Ned from sending Jenkins in there against him), but then send Estrada up there or something, I don't care. Everyone and their mother knew that Billy was going to have another horrible AB, except Ned.

 

And this is going into another thread, but clearly he doesn't grasp how Turnbow works yet, which is also unfathomable.

[TooLiveBrew]

Everyone and their mother knew[/knows] that ______ was going to[/will] have another horrible ________, except Ned.

 

Edited for genericizing (not sure if that's a word!), but this is essentially the main problem with this manager.

[Team Canada]

This sounds like when Yost brought in Aquino at the end of the inning except in opposite.

 

I must be missing something. Care to explain the correlation between the two situations (other than the fact that they were questioned by fans)?

That is the whole point of what I was saying. Yost is questioned on every move he makes at this point in the season. It is just the attitude that people seem to take every move as being right or wrong that bothers me. Some moves are better than others, but it is just degrees. If Yost does something one way he gets blamed for the loss. He makes the move the other way the next time and still gets blamed. At this point some people just have Yost hate blinders on. People are entitled to that opinion. I just think there should be some blame spread out to the players and a little less on the manager.

 

Personally, I would much rather have seen another pitcher blow that game. Yes, it would still suck, but Turnbow had a 0% chance of salvaging that situation, and I firmly believe any other pitcher had some chance higher than that. If he goes with Aquino (why, when Linebrink and Wise are out there, I don't know), and he blows it then fine, at least he tried. It's still on the players to perform, and Turnbow clearly didn't have it. So give up and move on.

 

[owbc]

1. There have been plenty of wins this year where I thought Yost made the wrong decisions.
2. There have been plenty of losses this year where Yost made the right decisions.

When the pitching tanked in July/August, there were way more of #2, and Yost ended up getting blamed because reliever after reliever failed.

[logan82]

I am not saying that the criticsms of Yost are not valid or that Yost hasn't lost us games. I am just saying that if we looked at any other manager in the league with this much scrutiny we would probably find many of the same mistakes.

[sheethead]

This sounds like when Yost brought in Aquino at the end of the inning except in opposite.

Actually, that's well put - in that, it illustrates that no matter what happens, if the Brewers lose, Yost somehow mishandled the bullpen in the minds of many here.

 

The mismangement started the day before in a blowout win.

[TooLiveBrew]

I am just saying that if we looked at any other manager in the league with this much scrutiny we would probably find many of the same mistakes.

 

Does this make them acceptable? Or less of a negative impact on uor chances at a playoff shot?

[logan82]

I would say less of an impact on our chances since they are currently making the mistakes for another team. If they managed for us they would hurt us.

 

I think it would be fair to say that many posters don't like many of Yost's moves this year. If that is true it stands to reason that they would like to see him replaced. If that is the case then are we necessarily going to see a manager that manages differently enough to make a big impact on wins and loses.

[TooLiveBrew]

If that is the case then are we necessarily going to see a manager that manages differently enough to make a big impact on wins and loses

 

While you dismiss the possibility of an intelligent hiring being able to decrease the number of 'less-than-ideal situations created' as a sort of circumstantial crapshoot, I beg to differ. I understand how you feel that most other managers also make questionable moves - what I fail to comprehend is how you write off Yost's continual failings as, "well, other managers make mistakes too."

 

It really has nothing to do with my critique(s) of him, and it doesn't relate to the chance to upgrade at the manager position at all. Just because a position on the team is x-teenth out of thrity in MLB (and not dead last or in the bottom five) is no reason to not search for an upgrade at said position.

[logan82]

I just think it would be trading one set of mistakes for a whole new set of mistakes.

 

We are also not talking about right and wrong. We are talking about better and best. At what point is one option drastically different enough to warrant a move. I understand that there is always a best move, but deciding at what point that move should be made is all a matter of opinion. For example, in my opinion the best time to use Cordero is any time after the starting pitcher has exited and the winning run is in the on deck circle. Unless that is the 8th inning or later almost no manager is going to do that.

[TooLiveBrew]

At what point is one option drastically different enough to warrant a move.

 

When the current option proves - time after time - that he has an incredibly difficult time identifying the correct move in many different situations.

[Ennder]

Who was Yost to bring in for Turnbow? Linebrink probably wasn't available, Shouse is gone, it's a tie game so even if Cordero pitches the eighth and ninth then who do you bring in? The rest of the bullpen is pretty sorry, except maybe Wise gets another shot considering the other options. Maybe Capuano could get through part of an inning without giving up a dinger, but that's only a maybe.

 

Yet again the right choice was Cordero. He was well rested and we had the next day off. Who cares if we NEED him in the 10th inning, I'd rather make sure the game gets to the 10th inning than lose in the 8th.

[endaround]

I don't understand the criticism of allowing Hall to bat. Yost's choices were Jenkins/Gross vs Grabow or Estrada both situations hardly a huge improvement when trying to avoid a GIDP. Now allowing Jenkins vs Grabow to occur when RHs are hitting .296 vs Grabow and LHs .236, well thats another story.

[sheethead]

endaround wrote:

---

I don't understand the criticism of allowing Hall to bat. Yost's choices were Jenkins/Gross vs Grabow or Estrada both situations hardly a huge improvement when trying to avoid a GIDP. Now allowing Jenkins vs Grabow to occur when RHs are hitting .296 vs Grabow and LHs .236, well thats another story.

 

My beef with letting Hall bat in the 8th with one out and runners on the corners was because it just delayed the inevitable. Why not PH Jenkins, then switch to a RH batter before Hall K's? Why wait until there are two outs to force Tracy's hand. Bill Hall should not have hit in that position, and just might be on his way to a career platoon type player. Although, he even looked awful against a lefty yesterday.

 

Ned never forces the hand of the opposing manager, which is why he is out-managed almost on a daily basis. If Ned's players don't execute the way he foresees them to, it's game over.