Ned Yost Yay or Nay thread: Hardball Times rips Yost (part 2)

[Mike2k33]

See, this is why it's better to be a hot second half team than a hot first half team. If that had been the case this year, with us being a 1/2 game back nobody would be calling for Yost's head. The 24-10 start was an impossible standard for this team to live up to for the rest of the year.

 

I also don't agree with the "if they win the division, I say Yost stays." Alright, so if they lose it by a game he's gone but if they win it by a game and get swept in the playoffs he stays?

 

I don't know if Ned should stay or not, but I'm not going to judge him based solely on the team's record.

[sheethead]

See, this is why it's better to be a hot second half team than a hot first half team. If that had been the case this year, with us being a 1/2 game back nobody would be calling for Yost's head. The 24-10 start was an impossible standard for this team to live up to for the rest of the year.

 

I also don't agree with the "if they win the division, I say Yost stays." Alright, so if they lose it by a game he's gone but if they win it by a game and get swept in the playoffs he stays?

 

I don't know if Ned should stay or not, but I'm not going to judge him based solely on the team's record.

 

Good call. One thing to keep in mind however, if Yost would have started off slow this year, and his mistakes were still as glaring as they are now, it sure would have been easier to fire him in May/June than it is today.

[endaround]

If the team started off April like it played in August, Yost would already have been fired. Which is why for Yost's job fast starts are much better than good finishes.

[DougJones43]

See, this is why it's better to be a hot second half team than a hot first half team. If that had been the case this year, with us being a 1/2 game back nobody would be calling for Yost's head.

 

That's true...because Yost probably would have been fired in April or May if the team had started the season 9-21 or whatever. He's actually lucky that all of the horrific baseball came after the 24-10 start. That hot start probably saved his job, because it has held the team's overall record near .500 all season long.

[Fatter than Joey]

That hot start probably saved his job, because it has held the team's overall record near .500 all season long.

 

Yes -- and also the Cubs frigid start. If Yost would have went 9-21 and the Cubs would have played better, we would be managed by someone different right now.

 

I don't think ANY fan thought that the 24-10 pace was sustainable, and that the Brewers would win 110+ games over the year, I think that they didn't think we would play .410+ ball for a large part of the second half.

[UndraftedFA]

I'm still in Ned's corner. I don't think he deserves to be fired any more than LaRussa or Pinella do. Each of their teams went through slides as well. I don't think you find many teams that do go a whole year without an awful stretch of results.

I don't think Aquino was all that dumb of a move either. He isn't a rookie, fresh from AAA. He's a guy that has some experience as a closer! He has some good stuff when he is on. He did pretty good at AAA. I'm sure some were wondering why he wasn't brought up sooner, while other guys were worn down.

I don't think Cordero is an obvious choice in that spot. Pence is a pretty good hitter. He had 2 hits off of Sheets that day (who happens to be a pretty good RHP). It's not like Cordero hasn't given up a hit all year. If Pence gets a hit off of him, runs score. Do you let Cordero hit in the bottom of the inning then, when his spot came up? I don't think people liked it when Linebrink did a few games back.

There wasn't many good double switch options either. Mench and Counsel batted before the pitcher's spot. Estrada would have been an option with Rottino. Hindsight, maybe a better option.

Wise and Spurling hardy offer anymore comfort than Aquino at this point either. Just because Cordero could have come in there, doesn't guarantee he would have given up any runs either. Pence is pretty good.

[trwi7]

He did pretty good at AAA.

 

So did Grant Balfour. How'd that work out for Neddy boy?

[sheethead]

I don't think Aquino was all that dumb of a move either. He isn't a rookie, fresh from AAA. He's a guy that has some experience as a closer! He has some good stuff when he is on. He did pretty good at AAA. I'm sure some were wondering why he wasn't brought up sooner, while other guys were worn down.

He had already blown two games for Ned this year while on the MLB roster. I know I wasn't wondering why Greg Aquino hadn't been called up earlier. Maybe the reason for that is.... well, another lost game that should have been won.

There wasn't many good double switch options either. Mench and Counsel batted before the pitcher's spot. Estrada would have been an option with Rottino. Hindsight, maybe a better option.

The options were gone because Ned exhausted them too early in a 3 run game. Does he not know they had already blown 14 of those leads and lost this year?

[logan82]

So what were the expectations at the start of the year? I would have said 85 wins and 2nd place in th edivision before the season started. I think many people had us at less wins than that.

[Fatter than Joey]

So what were the expectations at the start of the year?

 

Ours don't matter -- plus there were roster moves that are going to change those expectations. We added Gallardo, Braun, Linebrink with the idea of raising our win total, the expectation should correspondingly change as well.

 

It's really not about the W/L, it is more about the play. I don't think fans are encouraged by the blown leads and embarrassing defense.

[logan82]

If you say that you have to also say that fewer wins would be expected since Capuano and Hall played pretty poorly to go along with Sheets and Weeks getting hurt and missing time.

[UndraftedFA]

The options were gone because Ned exhausted them too early in a 3 run game. Does he not know they had already blown 14 of those leads and lost this year?

What did you disagree with? Hall Running for Jenkins? Dillion PH for Sheets? Weeks for Braun in the pitcher's spot? Mench maybe came in early for Gross, but that would have been a worse option to double switch than PH for the pitcher. He would have had to replace either Rottino or Mench(if he wasn't put in) for Hart, Hall, or Estrada.

 

I guess I don't see how he burned up the bench unnecessarily. If he brings in Cordero, he has to bank Houston gets no runs there. A pretty tough task against a guy having a good game. If Cordero gives up runs, Ned would have had to PH for him in the bottom of the inning. (Unless he took out Hart, Hall, or Estrada.) Even if he only gives up 2 and the Brewers were still up by 1, do you let Cordero bat for himself? I think Cordero only came in early 3 this season. 1 time he blew it in the 9th, if I remember right.

 

If it was the 9th inning I would agree, but Houston still had 4 outs to work with, 2 runners on, and the top of the line up. I think that is a lot to ask for when you knew you needed to play for more runs yourself. IMO, the pitchers spot was due up too quick to make the choice obvious. I can't think of many managers that risk losing their closer for the 9th inning. You might not agree, and I don't always either, but that is the way managers play it.

[mothershipconnection]

From today's Brewers.com article.

Yost joked a few days before that, during the Brewers' series at Wrigley Field, that there should be a couch in every Major League dugout, because it seems people are better at managing when they are sitting on one. But to be fair, the at-home managing has hit a new level this season partly because the '07 Brewers have a nasty habit of blowing hearty leads. They have led by three or more runs only to lose a game 16 times this season, tops in the Major Leagues.

 

I HATE when this stupid argument is made. "What, you think you can do better?" That has nothing to do with it, as someone doesn't need to be better than you at your job for you to be doing poorly. I'm (obviously) not a better baseball player than Chris Barnwell, but that doesn't mean I can't say he had no business in the major leagues.

[bigredrobbo]

If the Brewers get to the playoffs, Yost will get the manager of the year vote (the Girardi Factor), and all the national pundits calling him out now will say they called it before the season started.

 

For me, the conversation he had with Braun after the showboated HR stare showed more about his leadership than any bullpen move.

 

I'm still of the opinion that he does more good than harm to this team. I still believe and I'm voting yay.

[jeffy]

I am one of the people who says it's the players on the field that determine the outcome of the game. Is Ned a good in game manager? IMO no. But the Brewers record wouldn't be all that much better with somebody else. A manager does not make that big a difference in the long run. If Ned goes how do you know his replacement will do any better? I keep going back and forth on this thing but I have to say he stays at this point. If he goes than he does but I really don't think it's gonna make that much difference. This team will probably improve next year because the players will have more experience no matter who manages. Unfortunately if Ned goes the new guy will get all the credit.

 

The people on the nay side of this argument have to agree that if the Brewers can win this thing Ned stays. So if your hoping Ned gets fired you almost have to be hoping that the Brewers blow this thing. And even if they do there's no guarantee that he goes.

 

 

Sure the record would not be all that much better, but 2 or 3 wins just might be the difference between finishing 1st or 2nd. Of course, if they win he will stay...and I hope it is what happens.

 

However, I do hope that if they don't win, they are also sub-.500 and maybe in 3rd place, so that he will be most likely gone.

[Ennder]

The manager probably gives a swing of about plus or minus 3 games overall. Going from a LaRussa to a Yost might see a swing of 5 or 6 games overall.

[DougJones43]

For me, the conversation he had with Braun after the showboated HR stare showed more about his leadership than any bullpen move.

I guess I still fail to see how anybody figures that kind of stuff is going to translate into more wins. It might make Braun a nicer, more likeable guy, but I don't really see how it would improve him as a baseball player.

 

I hear so much stuff like "he's a players' manager!" or "he's a great clubhouse leader!" First, I don't really understand how anybody can know that. Have you been down in the clubhouse, gauging the teams' spirits and respect for Ned? Are you in any position to judge how much better or worse of a clubhouse guy Yost is than other managers around the league? Probably not. And even if it is true that he's such a solid leader, what makes everybody so sure that it is making the Brewers a more successful on-the-field baseball team? If anybody could offer up some tangible evidence, I'm more than willing to listen.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

So what would our record have been this year if we had Tony LaRussa this year as our manager? I'm guessing it's plus/minus 3 games.

[bigredrobbo]

Since nobody wants to win this flippin' division, spirit and unity is what'll do it. I think because of Yost and the coaching staff the Brewers have the tightest set of guys. That's why we'll win. That's one of the reasons I think he should stay.

 

But, hey, it's not a popular stance among some of the knee-jerk bandwagonners we see here from time to time.

Come back in a month. If I'm wrong, I'll admit it. That's way more than I suspect a great number of the Fire Yost crowd will do...

[Blazer25]

I would be willing to bet if Graffy is not hurt, both get taken out. I would also be willing to bet that if Dillon shows he can play 3B with any amount of credability both get taken out as well. Our lack of a 2nd true IF on the bench is hurting us right now. Weeks has had a bad couple of games lately. While he isn't a strong defender, he is still better than Braun.

 

#1 Graffy is not here so I'm not sure how that has any effect on why Braun is or isn't removed for defense before the 9th.

 

#2 The difference between Weeks and Braun deffensively is negligible. Braun may be slightly worse (I'd argue that it's a wash) but Weeks plays a position where bad plays will "hurt" more later in games. Not to mention the difference in Braun's bat over Weeks' bat more than makes up for whatever defense he might lack over Weeks.

 

#3 It is another example of Ned choosing an established player to stay in games versus the rookie even thought it might cost us chances to score runs late in games.

 

 

I repeat my Nay.

 

 

Hooray for 1st place BTW.

[DougJones43]

Since nobody wants to win this flippin' division, spirit and unity is what'll do it. I think because of Yost and the coaching staff the Brewers have the tightest set of guys. That's why we'll win.

You still haven't really answered my question. I know you think spirit, unity, and a good clubhouse help win games. Just re-stating it doesn't really qualify as tangible evidence or reasoning. How and why do these things help a baseball team win more games? I would really like just one solid reason that shows some type of direct correlation between a good clubhouse and winning baseball games.

 

There's countless studies, data, and facts that show baseball-related decisions have a direct impact on wins and losses, so I'll take sound strategy and logic over clubhouse unity anyday as a means to increase my team's chances of winning.

But, hey, it's not a popular stance among some of the knee-jerk bandwagonners we see here from time to time.

Come back in a month. If I'm wrong, I'll admit it. That's way more than I suspect a great number of the Fire Yost crowd will do...

 

Hey, if you don't have leg to stand on in the debate, just begin name calling and ad hominem responses. Nice.

[logan82]

#1 Graffy is not here so I'm not sure how that has any effect on why Braun is or isn't removed for defense before the 9th.

 

#2 The difference between Weeks and Braun deffensively is negligible. Braun may be slightly worse (I'd argue that it's a wash) but Weeks plays a position where bad plays will "hurt" more later in games. Not to mention the difference in Braun's bat over Weeks' bat more than makes up for whatever defense he might lack over Weeks.

 

#3 It is another example of Ned choosing an established player to stay in games versus the rookie even thought it might cost us chances to score runs late in games.

 

 

I repeat my Nay.

 

 

Hooray for 1st place BTW.

 

#1 Umm, yeah I know Graffy is not here. I said if he was not hurt he would take Weeks' place. Weeks and Braun are both below average defensively.

 

#2 Negligible? Braun is flat out terrible. Weeks is just bad. At this point I would almost take Helms at 3B over Braun if you are talking defense.

[SoCalBrewfan]

I hear so much stuff like "he's a players' manager!" or "he's a great clubhouse leader!"

 

I do think those things are important, but I also think it's hard to pin down which managers make a difference due to qualities of that nature. Sometimes the authoritarian jerks get good performances out of guys, sometimes it's the laid-back nice guys. Sometimes it seems to work to switch from type A to type B (Rodgers --> Kuenn?). But then I wonder sometimes if it isn't like Nichols' law of catcher defense, where it is assumed that a catcher hitting .210 must be a great glove man...maybe it is just assumed that a tactical doofus must be a winning personality behind closed doors.

[Blazer25]

Negligible? Braun is flat out terrible. Weeks is just bad. At this point I would almost take Helms at 3B over Braun if you are talking defense.

Again you avoided the point. They are both bad. Bad enough to cost you games. I'd say it's closer than you think as to their defensive ability.

 

But why sub one and not the other especially considering:

 

Braun OPS=1.029

Weeks OPS=.744

 

 

I don't have a problem with Ned removing Braun in the 9th inning with a lead for defensive purposes.

 

But if there is a chance that Braun may come to bat again and you take him out in the 8th why not take Weeks out instead?

 

It's an indefensible move IMO and it smacks of Ned's old tendencies to stick with more established guys over rookies no matter what the data says.

[logan82]

You and I just have different philosophies on baseball. I believe that even in the 8th inning, when you have a lead, it is more important to prevent runs than score them.