Ned Yost Yay or Nay thread: Hardball Times rips Yost (part 2)

[danzig6767]

Im sure the players have been scratching their heads about Yosts decision making. Every game the guy does something that completely defies logic. Unfortunately Attanasio seems like the type of guy that really doesnt understand the game and Melvin appears to be joined at the hip with Yost so he probably isnt going anywhere. If Attanasio was as savvy when it comes to baseball as he is in business he would realize that the team has underachieved and Yost has more than likely cost them a shot at the playoffs. Unfortunately he seems completely giddy with the attendance figures and second place.

 

I'm not a fan of Yost,but if Melvin wants Ned to stay,the last thing i want to see is the owner telling his GM who should manage the team.That's the kind of stuff Herb Kohl does with the Bucks,see how good that's worked out there.

The hiring/firing of the manager should be done by the GM IMO and then if the team doesn't meet the expectations of the owner,it's on the GM since he's making all the moves.Owners of sports teams have very right to do as they wish,but it's more rare than common where they know what they are doing in regards to moves that should be made by the more qualified GM they hired.

 

[brewers19]

The fact remains Ned has performed poorly on the road and in the second half of the season.

 

The thing is, I'm not convinced on the fact that this is Ned's fault. There are 25 guys who go out there and play the game everyday, and yet one is expected to believe that an uneven home/road record is the fault of the guy who fills out the lineup card and makes in-game substitutions? It may be the case, but I have yet to see any sort evidence supporting it. As far as I'm concerned right now, it's not a causal relationship.

 

The first/second half thing may have a little more merit, as the manager is responsible for administering the workouts and conditioning of the players; which may ultimately play a role in the later portions of the season. But even considering this, I don't believe the manager to be a highly significant influence.

[Fatter than Joey]

The thing is, I'm not convinced on the fact that this is Ned's fault.

 

It's not Ned's fault exclusively -- the results though are pretty compelling.

yet one is expected to believe that an uneven home/road record is the fault of the guy who fills out the lineup card and makes in-game substitutions? It may be the case, but I have yet to see any sort evidence supporting it.

 

It is pretty common knowledge that Ned uses his bullpen/closer different on the road than at home. That could certainly account for more losses, I don't think that it is a stretch to then conclude he is managing other aspects of the game differently as well. If you are waiting evidence, as in something kicked out in spread-sheet format, we are both going to be in for a long wait. Meanwhile the bad results keep piling up.

 

If we can't see the evidence, that usually is an indication of our limitations to extract or measure the data. I don't believe as our players get older, we should be waiting for evidence to materialize, sometimes results have to be enough.

[logan82]

Circumstances are different at home than on the road. You always have at least one more at bat at home when you make RP decisions.

[logan82]

As for the Crasnick article, anyone blaming Suppan for the Brewers problems has no idea what they are talking about.

 

I didn't think of that, but I am suspicious when he talks about something that happened recently when it happened around a month ago(I think any way. Yost made his nuclear winter comment a while back I believe.) For all we know the "grumblings" could be when Hall said he wanted to play more. The only ones I see getting shorted on playing time right now are Jenkins, Hall and Braun. Braun getting pulled is debatable depending on if you think pulling he or Weeks is a better idea, but as for Hall and Jenkins, they haven't exactly played well all year so I would say to them, play better.

[TooLiveBrew]

One thing that concerns me about Yost is his propensity to support players through their failings (whether he affected their situations/matchups or not). I understand players want a manager who won't go all LaRussa on them, but this team is getting to the point where they need to stop being coddled and told, 'Well, you tried your best.' I'm not suggesting benching players for not executing, but I'd like to see an attitude shift away from, 'He gave it his all, and we appreciate that even though he didn't come through,' to, '[Player] busted his butt, but the bottom line is we have to [execute in specific situation].'

 

A strong example is the amount of strikeouts (especially swinging) this team has compiled throughout the 2007 campaign. Lip service was paid to reducing K's from our offense this offseason, but the approaches at the plate have not seemed to change. Now, is this on the players, manager, hitting coach? Probably a combination of all three. The mentality of the team starts from the top, though, and there has been no change in approach. We're currently on pace to have 6 regulars finish with over 100 K's this season, and only 2 of those (Fielder & Weeks) have drawn enough BBs to justify their high K rate.

 

I understand that the players are ultimately responsible for altering their approaches, but whatever message the coaching staff has been sending is either not resonating, or supporting the way our guys go out & hack away. Fielder & Weeks drastically turned around their BB/K ratios after the ASB, and Hardy cut way down on his K's, but also saw BBs drop (and his BB/K ratio decrease overall). OBP has been a huge weakness for this team, and I'd be shocked if Skaalen is retained in 2008. To be more specific, it's not even just the high K totals that concern me, but rather the lack of BBs.

 

As of today, the Crew's ranks are :

 

OBP - 11th NL (22d ML)

K - 10th (20th)

BB - 15th (26th)

 

Thankfully the team's SLG is about as good as it gets in MLB, but it's hard to imagine how some more plate discipline couldn't help the Brewers going forward.

[logan82]

TLB

I think replacing Jenkins/Mench with Gross/Dillon will help a little. Like you said though, it is a team wide problem. I am not sure if some of it might be attributable to youth.

[brewers19]

the results though are pretty compelling.

 

But if there is no proven and coherent causal relationship, the primary origin of the results is nothing more than speculation. There can be any number of reasons why the team plays better at home (fan energy, familiar park, no travel, better food, whatever), but there is just as little evidence for each of these as there is for it being Ned's fault.

 

Here are the splits:

 AVG OBP SLG OPS OPS+ 
HOME .271 .340 .477 .817 110
ROAD .256 .320 .437 .757 102 

 

Blaming a 15 point difference in batting average, 20 in on-base, and 40 in slugging solely on the way Ned manages seems just a little fallacious.

[Fatter than Joey]

little evidence for each of these as there is for it being Ned's fault.

 

The way Ned handles his BP on the road is about as casual as you could get, and certainly HAS contributed to losses, given our best reliever doesn't get into some road games.

 

Blaming a 15 point difference in batting average, 20 in on-base, and 40 in slugging solely on the way Ned manages seems just a little fallacious.

 

Sure. No one has made a claim anything remotely close to this.

[brewers19]

No one has made a claim anything remotely close to this.

 

But it goes to show that there are fairly distinct differences in production in areas outside of Ned's control; which suggests that a fair amount of the blame for the underachievement on the road falls on the players.

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

One thing that concerns me about Yost is his propensity to support players through their failings (whether he affected their situations/matchups or not). I understand players want a manager who won't go all LaRussa on them, but this team is getting to the point where they need to stop being coddled and told, 'Well, you tried your best.' I'm not suggesting benching players for not executing, but I'd like to see an attitude shift away from, 'He gave it his all, and we appreciate that even though he didn't come through,' to, '[Player] busted his butt, but the bottom line is we have to [execute in specific situation].'

 

A strong example is the amount of strikeouts (especially swinging) this team has compiled throughout the 2007 campaign. Lip service was paid to reducing K's from our offense this offseason, but the approaches at the plate have not seemed to change. Now, is this on the players, manager, hitting coach? Probably a combination of all three. The mentality of the team starts from the top, though, and there has been no change in approach. We're currently on pace to have 6 regulars finish with over 100 K's this season, and only 2 of those (Fielder & Weeks) have drawn enough BBs to justify their high K rate.

 

I understand that the players are ultimately responsible for altering their approaches, but whatever message the coaching staff has been sending is either not resonating, or supporting the way our guys go out & hack away. Fielder & Weeks drastically turned around their BB/K ratios after the ASB, and Hardy cut way down on his K's, but also saw BBs drop (and his BB/K ratio decrease overall). OBP has been a huge weakness for this team, and I'd be shocked if Skaalen is retained in 2008. To be more specific, it's not even just the high K totals that concern me, but rather the lack of BBs.

 

As of today, the Crew's ranks are :

 

OBP - 11th NL (22d ML)

K - 10th (20th)

BB - 15th (26th)

 

Thankfully the team's SLG is about as good as it gets in MLB, but it's hard to imagine how some more plate discipline couldn't help the Brewers going forward.

 

I agree with a lot of that TooLive, my question is what is the biggest part of the lack of plate discipline? Is it the coaches or the choice of players. I think lack of plate discipline has been a recurring theme for the Brewers over the last 20 years. A great deal of that is our mix of players. When your in a small market I think you get taken in by some "value trap" type ballplayers that mash some homers, but strikeout too much to make them effective. We had Rod Carew, perhaps the best hitter of his generation, as our hitting coach once and he couldn't get through to these guys. If one took a "Moneyball" philosophy, you either have plate discipline or you don't, there is a limited amount that can be learned. I wonder if taking one/two players that are lower OBP guys out of our lineup and replacing them with higher OBP/lower power types would help the overall mix of the lineup.

 

One dramatic improvement that has been nice to see has been Weeks. Whether it's health, a better approach or even the coaching, his plate discipline and BB total has been outstanding since his recall from Nashville.

[1992casey]

Brought to our attention by RU Rah Rah:

RU Rah Rah wrote:

---

Per Haudricourt's blog:

Brewers owner Mark Attanasio said he did not think manager Ned Yost has been twisting in the wind but nevertheless told me today Yost's job is secure for 2008.

"Ned is safe," said Attanasio, on hand at Miller Park for the Brewers' game against St. Louis.

Attanasio says Yost is "fine"

[RU Rah Rah]

Brought to our attention by RU Rah Rah:

RU Rah Rah wrote:

---

Per Haudricourt's blog:

Brewers owner Mark Attanasio said he did not think manager Ned Yost has been twisting in the wind but nevertheless told me today Yost's job is secure for 2008.

"Ned is safe," said Attanasio, on hand at Miller Park for the Brewers' game against St. Louis.

Attanasio says Yost is "fine"

Not to be too picky, but Haudricourt's quotes don't match. One says Ned is "safe," the other says Ned is "fine." (Presumably, he's quoting the same utterance.)

 

 

[1992casey]

Interesting. I wonder if Tom edited. I assume you copied and pasted when you first posted.

[RU Rah Rah]

Interesting. I wonder if Tom edited. I assume you copied and pasted when you first posted.

Definitely cut-and-pasted. Didn't retype.

 

[1992casey]

And I pasted the text into the link a bit later on. I bet Tom re-listened to his recording or something.

[SeriesFinale]

46 pages down the drain!

 

My feelings are mixed.

[jlau20]

I guess atleast we know he'll be around next year, somewhat taking the fun out of debating whether or not he should be though.

[valpocrewsader]

AWFUL AWFUL AWFUL news. Next we'll be hearing that Jenkins' option has been picked up. This organization just refuses to move on.

[RU Rah Rah]

Of course my favorite part of that blog posting is the following:

 

"Mostly on Internet sites, Yost has been lambasted for what some angry fans deem bullpen mismanagement. The fact that the Brewers have blown 16 leads of three or more runs -- most in the majors -- has fueled that criticism."

Yeah, those crazy Internet types . . .

[twobrewers]

Yost has his flaws. But I certainly don't want to see Dusty Baker come here next year either.

 

There is something to be said for having a plan and sticking with it. Our organization has certainly been more stable than in the past. Ned isn't a great manager. But he isn't as bad as some have made him out to be either.

 

I just hope he coaches next year like he has this past month. (Playing to win every game instead of sticking with the "battlers") While I still disagree with his bullpen management of late - I have enjoyed his general attitude more this past month.

[1992casey]

But I certainly don't want to see Dusty Baker come here next year either.

Yeah, really! http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif No matter what you have, it's always possible to get worse.

[logan82]

Of course my favorite part of that blog posting is the following:

 

"Mostly on Internet sites, Yost has been lambasted for what some angry fans deem bullpen mismanagement. The fact that the Brewers have blown 16 leads of three or more runs -- most in the majors -- has fueled that criticism."

Yeah, those crazy Internet types . . .

 

Yeah no kidding those guys are... Hey wait a minute.

[1992casey]

46 pages down the drain!

I'm using custom settings, so I'm only on page 31. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

 

[AJAY]

Ned doesn't seem to like us very much.

 

From JS Online . . . .

 

 

"There was no Internet or this other stuff they have today, with the dissection and the message boards and everything where every pitch is dissected nine different ways, and the people who really missed their calling and should have been major-league managers," he said.