Ned Yost Yay or Nay thread: Hardball Times rips Yost (part 2)

[UndraftedFA]

Couldn't a GM find a guy who wouldn't do the same stuff? Are you saying that, in all of organized baseball, there isn't anybody who believes in some of the philosophies put forward by SABRmetrics and fundamental logic?

I honestly don't think so. How many managers do that? If it is so wrong, why do GM's keep hiring guys with that philosophy? I pretty much feel the same way Logan does: Yost doesn't do things drastically different from other managers. Most of us just don't put other managers under a microscope. Can you really say you haven't noticed a lot of odd decisions by the opponent's manager this year as well?

 

This team had it's rough stretch after a big lead so it looks worse. Their record isn't going to be much worse than the Cubs. The cubs started out the year in rough shape. St. Louis also started out rough, and ended rough too. Should Pinella and LaRussa be fired? If you go to their fansites after series loss to the Brewers, you'll read how Yost out managed them. Believe it or not, I have read that on Cardinals' message boards. I don't think Yost is better than LaRussa, but I think he is a ton better than many give him credit for.

 

I still have a lot of faith in Ned. This team doesn't quit one bit. There is a ton of fire and passion in them even when things don't go their way. They didn't pack it in when they lost the star pitcher. They have played amazing all September. Win or lose, they are giving the Cubs all they can handle. IMHO, that is a credit to Yost.

[DougJones43]

I still have a lot of faith in Ned. This team doesn't quit one bit. There is a ton of fire and passion in them even when things don't go their way.

What does this mean? And how can you tell? You're able to guage the team's passion from watching them on your television screen? I've never gotten this argument. What would constitute "quitting" anyway? Sitting in the dugout with "dejected" looks on their faces? Guys on the team not going in hard to break up double plays? Players actually quitting, and not showing up for the games??

 

 

They didn't pack it in when they lost the star pitcher.

While Ben Sheets was out of commision (July 15 - Aug. 28) the Brewers were 15-26. That's not good. Or by "not packing it in" did you mean the same thing as "not quitting"...

[Jay Zahn]

I want a better comaprison to other managers before making a decision.

 

Would you care to elaborate on this a little? It's very vague.

I think he means that instead of making a list of reasons why you hate Yost, you should compare him to other managers on a qualitative basis. For example, compare Yost's use of bunting or the stolen base to other managers. Yost's use of his closer to other managers. Yost's defensive substitution to other managers. Then explain how what Yost does is different and why it's worse than the average manager, or the good managers.

[logan82]

Couldn't a GM find a guy who wouldn't do the same stuff? Are you saying that, in all of organized baseball, there isn't anybody who believes in some of the philosophies put forward by SABRmetrics and fundamental logic?

 

 

I honestly think the best thing as far as using an ace reliver is concerned would be to give the manager a leverage chart and tell him that if it reaches a certain level, insert your best reliever.

I'm sorry, but I really find this to be absurd. You can't chart out all of the possible scenarios that can happen in a game, and there are other (season-long) effects to cosider, like how often to use a guy, etc. The whole point is, if your manager would need one of these charts, he sucks. He doesn't have the instincts or intelligence to be managing a major league baseball team. There are probably a lot of people who can routinely make these types of decisions without a chart. Good managers just know.

Obviously there would be more conditions like a pitch count within a week and asking how the reliever was feeling day to day. I am sorry, but I find it surprising that you talk about SABRmetrics in one sentence then turn around and poo poo a leverage index.

 

http://www.insidethebook.com/li.shtml

[DougJones43]

I think he means that instead of making a list of reasons why you hate Yost, you should compare him to other managers on a qualitative basis. For example, compare Yost's use of bunting or the stolen base to other managers. Yost's use of his closer to other managers. Yost's defensive substitution to other managers. Then explain how what Yost does is different and why it's worse than the average manager, or the good managers.

I don't think it's very realistic to try and compile such a list since every situation is so different. For example, what could you find to compare to leaving in Mench instead of Jenkins to face Dempster? Or bringing in Aquino on the Labor Day game? Or not using Cordero against the Astros with the season possibly hanging in the balance last week? How many managers would remove Braun in the 7th inning of a 1-run game? Obviously, there is no realistic way to answer these questions with 100% certainty. That leaves us observation coupled with basic common sense to draw conclusions.

 

I think, although it can't technically be proven, it's pretty fair to assume most of the better managers in the league would not have made these same decisions. There has been analysis done by some very astute baseball minds that also find these moves very puzzling. That has to count for something, as they also examine other managers and seem to believe Yost makes some of the more illogical decisions.

[DougJones43]

I am sorry, but I find it surprising that you talk about SABRmetrics in one sentence then turn around and poo poo a leverage index.

I'm not scoffing at the theory behind the leverage index, or the implementation of those theories. I'm just saying that actually keeping one in the dugout that the manager needs to look at before making pitching changes seems far-fetched. That kind of knowledge and intuition should be ingrained in a good manager.

 

Also, there is a lot of other stuff going on that needs to be processed in real-time game situations. For example, last weeks game against the Astros had huge implications for the Brewers. They had just stormed back from behind, and needed that game to keep pace with the Cubs. Cordero needed to be used. I want my manager to realize the importance of that situation, and no index is going to tell him that. It just doesn't seem reasonable to have a manager relying too much on charts and indexes during the game.

[recte44]

I was impressed with Yost's fire the last couple of days. I was at the game Monday night and when he came out to argue that call, got tossed, and kept on arguing it was great. I can't remember hearing a larger ovation for a manager from a crowd.

[clancyphile]

I still have a lot of faith in Ned. This team doesn't quit one bit. There is a ton of fire and passion in them even when things don't go their way.

What does this mean? And how can you tell? You're able to guage the team's passion from watching them on your television screen? I've never gotten this argument. What would constitute "quitting" anyway? Sitting in the dugout with "dejected" looks on their faces? Guys on the team not going in hard to break up double plays? Players actually quitting, and not showing up for the games??

 

 

They didn't pack it in when they lost the star pitcher.

While Ben Sheets was out of commision (July 15 - Aug. 28) the Brewers were 15-26. That's not good. Or by "not packing it in" did you mean the same thing as "not quitting"...

Ultimately, it was that time while Sheets was out that the Brewers faltered.

 

As Sheets goes, so do the Brewers. When Capuano was out and struggling (I think the injury may have had tis lingering effects on Cappy), the team managed to hang in there at the top. It was only when sheets went down that the Brewers fell flat.

 

It may not have mad ethat much difference, but had Sheets been healthy, I think the Brewers get 20-22 wins in that stretch, rather than 15. That's really the difference between having to win out with no guarantees, and having this last week be a triumphal close to a division title.

[jeffy]

There are whispers of clubhouse discord, particularly among the Milwaukee veterans, over Yost's frequent lineup changes and penchant for riding the hot hand.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=crasnick_jerry&id=3035426

[Jay Zahn]

I am sorry, but I find it surprising that you talk about SABRmetrics in one sentence then turn around and poo poo a leverage index.

I'm not scoffing at the theory behind the leverage index, or the implementation of those theories. I'm just saying that actually keeping one in the dugout that the manager needs to look at before making pitching changes seems far-fetched. That kind of knowledge and intuition should be ingrained in a good manager.

 

Also, there is a lot of other stuff going on that needs to be processed in real-time game situations. For example, last weeks game against the Astros had huge implications for the Brewers. They had just stormed back from behind, and needed that game to keep pace with the Cubs. Cordero needed to be used. I want my manager to realize the importance of that situation, and no index is going to tell him that. It just doesn't seem reasonable to have a manager relying too much on charts and indexes during the game.

Earl Weaver used charts and notecards. Football coaches have charts telling them when to go for two. Why leave it to chance? If you have a resource, use it.

[bklynbrewcrew]

Im sure the players have been scratching their heads about Yosts decision making. Every game the guy does something that completely defies logic. Unfortunately Attanasio seems like the type of guy that really doesnt understand the game and Melvin appears to be joined at the hip with Yost so he probably isnt going anywhere. If Attanasio was as savvy when it comes to baseball as he is in business he would realize that the team has underachieved and Yost has more than likely cost them a shot at the playoffs. Unfortunately he seems completely giddy with the attendance figures and second place.

[sheethead]

I'll admit, I like the fire Yost was spewing the last couple of games. I was as angry with the umps as he was. The umping has just been atrocious for the crew down the stretch. Kind of like how the Bucks were manhandled by the officials in the postseason a while back. However, it doesnt change my mind. Nay.

[bklynbrewcrew]

Showing fire the last week of the season isnt enough to overcome Ned's lack of in game managerial prowess. If the guy hasnt learned in 5 years how to manage why should we think that the light bulb is all of a sudden going to brighten. The team played horribly on the road once again and the second half was a lousy one once again. The difference with the team is that the talent level has improved dramtaically but we are still an underachieving club and that is the fault of the manager. Nay Nay Nay Nay Nay!

[Team Canada]

Unfortunately Attanasio seems like the type of guy that really doesnt understand the game and Melvin appears to be joined at the hip with Yost so he probably isnt going anywhere. If Attanasio was as savvy when it comes to baseball as he is in business he would realize that the team has underachieved and Yost has more than likely cost them a shot at the playoffs. Unfortunately he seems completely giddy with the attendance figures and second place.

 

I think you are seriously misinformed about Attanasio's knowledge and capabilities.

 

[bigredrobbo]

Unfortunately Attanasio seems like the type of guy that really doesnt understand the game.

 

Seems like? C'mon, there must be a metric for his level of understanding somewhere. At least that's what those of us who have an opinion that isn't based on raw data are told as it applies to our hated manager...

[bklynbrewcrew]

Team Canada, would you mind going into more detail about Attanasio's knowledge and capabilities? Listen the man is obviously very smart based on his business dealings but what makes you think that he has an understanding of in game managerial decisions? I could be wrong but I see the owner as a guy that desperately wants to win but doesnt have a full understanding that the team has underachieved. Maybe I am wrong but thats the impression I get.

[bklynbrewcrew]

From his interview on TV last night he just seems to be extremely giddy that the ballpark is actually filled with fans in late September and doesnt come off to me as someone that is bitterly disappointed in a likely second place finish.

[logan82]

You really think a successful businessman really likes to finish 2nd in anything?

[bklynbrewcrew]

I get the impression that he is quite satisfied with record attendance and an improved team. If it were me I would see a team that choked away an 8 1/2 game lead and underachieved for most of the second half off the season with a manager that looks lost from a strategic perspective and that would be reason enough to fire him. Yost has had 5 years and he still hasnt learned how to manage a game.

[endaround]

Keep in mind Mark Attanasio asked Yost about playing Mench against RHP at the start of the season. Yost of course pointed to Mench's hot hitting at the time. Which lead to a month of Mench. And the same thinking lead to a month of Gwynn.

 

As for the Crasnick article, anyone blaming Suppan for the Brewers problems has no idea what they are talking about.

[Brewer Fever]

I think the easiest argument against Yost is the .459 clip this team has played at for now near 80% of the season. Just too much talent for that result. Not to mention, the second half failures and road woes that are a repeating theme under Yost.

[brewers19]

Not to mention, the second half failures and road woes that are a repeating theme under Yost.

 

Not entirely. In four of Ned's five seasons here, the first half has been better than the second half; but this was the case for the five seasons prior to him coming here as well. Same thing with the home/road splits; four of the five seasons both under Yost and prior to him, the team did a fair amount better at home than on the road.

Neither of these seem to be unique to Ned's tenure here.

 

 YEAR HOME AWAY 1ST 2ND 
2007 .640 .395 .557 .456
2006 .593 .333 .489 .341
2005 .568 .432 .500 .477
2004 .444 .388 .523 .293
2003 .383 .457 .398 .449

2002 .383 .309 .375 .311
2001 .444 .395 .488 .342
2000 .519 .383 .420 .486
1999 .400 .519 .488 .427
1998 .469 .444 .506 .403 

[valpocrewsader]

Not entirely. In four of Ned's five seasons here, the first half has been better than the second half; but this was the case for the five seasons prior to him coming here as well. Same thing with the home/road splits; four of the five seasons both under Yost and prior to him, the team did a fair amount better at home than on the road. Neither of these seem to be unique to Ned's tenure here.

So if my wife's ex-husband beat her, I can too?

 

 

EDIT: (I don't have a wife.)

[brewers19]

So if my wife's ex-husband beat her, I can too?

 

Umm, probably not?

 

My point is that it's not fair to act as though Ned is causally responsible for such things as home/road record and first/second half record when it's something that's been present before he was even around. Not to mention, it's debatable how much of an effect a manager really has on the final win/loss record, let alone on situational splits of that record.

[Fatter than Joey]

My point is that it's not fair to act as though Ned is causally responsible for such things as home/road record and first/second half record when it's something that's been present before he was even around.

 

Bad managing and incompetency were present before Ned was hired as well, maybe he caught something on the bathroom doorknob? I don't see your point. The fact remains Ned has performed poorly on the road and in the second half of the season. If you look at any franchise with a history of futility, you will see a string of bad management/players -- its the predominant string.