Ned Yost Yay or Nay thread: Hardball Times rips Yost (part 2)

[kgbaseball]

Absolutely nobody should be complaining about Yost today. It came down to 2 things: obviously the homerun and Rickie's misplay. Other than that, he did perfectly fine.

[Ennder]

I disagree, its not that simple. If Yost puts in Mench to PH for Counsell instead of doing the dumb bunt thing we raise our chance of scoring a run at least 10% if not more. So 10% of the time the game would have been over regardless of what happened later in the game.

 

Like I said Yost didn't cost us the game, but he certainly lowered our chances of winning and you do not want a manager who does that on a regular basis. I don't care whether your players perform or not when he's making poor choices it will hurt the team in the long run.

[brettac1]

Mench should have definitely hit in that spot. One thing that is good about him there, aside from his demolition of LHP's, is that he pretty much always makes contact and he rarely GIDP's. I would say that that run scores most likely with Mench up.

[kgbaseball]

Ned wanted to put the bunt on there, which wasn't a bad move. Counsell has to be considered one of the best bunters on the team, and we all expected him to get one down. He didn't so we can all blame Craig, not Yost.

[joeyhepatitis]

I'm Nay on Yost but you can't hang this loss on him. He's made plenty of bad decisions as a manager, but c'mon...If the season's played out in such a way that Cordero can blow a lead, the Brewers continue fail to get a hit with RISP, Weeks botches a routine groundball, and NONE of it is surprising in the least bit the team isn't going to make the playoffs. There's been enough bad play to be able to spread the blame around the entire team including Yost.

[Ennder]

Even if Counsell gets the bunt down it was not a suicide squeeze so there is a very good chance the runner either doesn't go or is cut down at home. Its just a bad move all around and having him bunt with 2 strikes was horrible. There is no way letting Counsell bunt there is better than pinch hitting.

 

And again I'm not saying Yost cost us the game because he could have pinch hit and Mench could have GIDP etc. What I'm saying is he lowered our chances to win and he has done that too many times to count this season. Those things add up over the season.

[brettac1]

Why would you bunt when you already have the lead, though? Play for the big inning on the road.

[kgbaseball]

Well, it was Stocker on 3rd, probably the 2nd fastest guy on the team right now. With Chipper charging, Mel had a huge lead each pitch. As long as Counsell got the ball down, Stocker was going to score. I'm guessing that was what Ned was thinking.

[Fatter than Joey]

Terrible fielding by Rickie, anyone?

 

Yeah Weeks is a bad defender -- why does Yost replace Braun every single game but doesn't think to replace Weeks? I'd rather have Braun's bat than Weeks.

 

It has been said many times in this thread and the IGT, Yost is not culprit #1 today, but he sure doesn't do anything to help our effort.

[BrewCrewRising]

Terrible fielding by Rickie, anyone?

 

Yeah Weeks is a bad defender -- why does Yost replace Braun every single game but doesn't think to replace Weeks? I'd rather have Braun's bat than Weeks.

 

It has been said many times in this thread and the IGT, Yost is not culprit #1 today, but he sure doesn't do anything to help our effort.

This, coupled with something Ennder said has me swayed toward the "Nay". The manager does not play. He may to some extent inspire players, but otherwise his only job is to position the game to his team's greatest advantage. I just don't see that from him. We don't need a manager anymore who can make West Obermueller and Mark Kinney feel confident about their lack of stuff. We need a guy who can position the talent to the greatest advantage and give us a higher percentage of wins out of those games where the talent of the team doesn't explode into a certain win.

And if you're going to bunt, why not have Suppan do it right away? He bunts much more than Counsell and would probably be a little more effective at it. That said, I have to echo the above statement that says you play for the big inning on the road. That was a lot to spend on the specter of 1 insurance run.

[jeffy]

Certainly the players made their mistakes today and lost the game, but I don't know that I have ever seen another manager have a position player bunt with two strikes.

 

Ned did it twice today and didn't he have Hardy do it in another game? It is just bizarre that he can think this is a good idea.

[TooLiveBrew]

Ned Yost is smart because he's the manager. Questioning any decision he makes means you're unintelligent.

[Mike Felder]

While people can argue all day about how responsible Yost was for today's loss, this quote from him in Tom Haudricourt's game article on JS Online just underlines why lots of people want him gone:

 

The Brewers missed a prime opportunity to tack on another run in the 10th after Hart's homer, which loomed large after Thorman tied the game. With runners on the corners, including speedy pinch-runner Mel Stocker at third, substitute third baseman Craig Counsell tried a drag bunt with two strikes and fouled it off for a strikeout.

Asked if he thought that was a smart play, Yost growled, "Counsell is a polished major league, professional player."

 

That's an observation and one man's opinion, not a reason to call for a questionable (and that's putting it charitably) move in extra innings in one of the biggest games of the year, whether you have the lead or not. We're always told that Yost has reasons for what he does. I sure as heck hope that reasons like that are not what people who want him back are hanging their hats on.

[trwi7]

Wow nice answer Ned. You're in your 5th year don't you think you should be a polished major league manager? Do you even know that if a bunt foul with two strikes it's a strikeout?

[Jay Zahn]

The idea that any manager is going to win a ton of games on the chess match type of stuff is not something I agree with. So I guess I don't agree with all the bashers who think that Yost cost us 5 or 7 or 10 games this year by not making the right move. Yeah, it's important to make the moves as well as you can. But people overestimate the amount that it matters in wins and losses. They also overestimate how many managers are really very good at that sort of stuff. Dusty Baker? Bob Brenly? Don Zimmer? Sparky Anderson? Harvey Kuenn?

As others have said, the most important role of a manager is managing the personalities in the clubhouse. Other biggies are being able to get along with the GM and owner, and identifying which are the most productive players. Buck Rodgers I'm sure was sounder on the moves than Kuenn, but he lost the players.

The strengths and weaknesses of this team are pretty obvious. The low OBP of the offense wastes a lot of the home runs. The starting pitching over the course of the season has actually been better than people think, but the bullpen's one of the worst in baseball no matter how you slice it. No manager could manage this bullpen well, unless he actually got the relievers to issue fewer hits and walks. If you want to blame Yost or Maddux or Melvin for not developing enough bullpen talent, that's a lot bigger issue in wins and losses than switching this guy for that guy. For most of the season we've been one or two men short of what the good bullpens have. Blame Yost for that if you want. George Bamberger was the best I've ever seen at developing pitching talent, and maybe Yost is no Bamberger, or Yost/Maddux is no LaRussa/Duncan or Cox/Mazzone. Not being able to fill the pitching staff with quality guys is a lot bigger than who pitches in what spot. As for the OBP, I don't see a lot of options that Yost had on the team, but again, if you want a new manager he has to deliver results in that area.

[brewers255]

The idea that any manager is going to win a ton of games on the chess match type of stuff is not something I agree with. So I guess I don't agree with all the bashers who think that Yost cost us 5 or 7 or 10 games this year by not making the right move. Yeah, it's important to make the moves as well as you can. But people overestimate the amount that it matters in wins and losses. They also overestimate how many managers are really very good at that sort of stuff. Dusty Baker? Bob Brenly? Don Zimmer? Sparky Anderson? Harvey Kuenn?

 

As others have said, the most important role of a manager is managing the personalities in the clubhouse. Other biggies are being able to get along with the GM and owner, and identifying which are the most productive players. Buck Rodgers I'm sure was sounder on the moves than Kuenn, but he lost the players.

 

The strengths and weaknesses of this team are pretty obvious. The low OBP of the offense wastes a lot of the home runs. The starting pitching over the course of the season has actually been better than people think, but the bullpen's one of the worst in baseball no matter how you slice it. No manager could manage this bullpen well, unless he actually got the relievers to issue fewer hits and walks. If you want to blame Yost or Maddux or Melvin for not developing enough bullpen talent, that's a lot bigger issue in wins and losses than switching this guy for that guy. For most of the season we've been one or two men short of what the good bullpens have. Blame Yost for that if you want. George Bamberger was the best I've ever seen at developing pitching talent, and maybe Yost is no Bamberger, or Yost/Maddux is no LaRussa/Duncan or Cox/Mazzone. Not being able to fill the pitching staff with quality guys is a lot bigger than who pitches in what spot. As for the OBP, I don't see a lot of options that Yost had on the team, but again, if you want a new manager he has to deliver results in that area.

 

Post of the year. Everyone bashes Yost but why doesn't anyone ever bash Mike Maddux or any of the bench coaches? There's a reason why they have 3 coaches in the dugout, they talk about the decisions game-wise its just not Yost.

[Principessa21]

The idea that any manager is going to win a ton of games on the chess match type of stuff is not something I agree with. So I guess I don't agree with all the bashers who think that Yost cost us 5 or 7 or 10 games this year by not making the right move. Yeah, it's important to make the moves as well as you can. But people overestimate the amount that it matters in wins and losses. They also overestimate how many managers are really very good at that sort of stuff. Dusty Baker? Bob Brenly? Don Zimmer? Sparky Anderson? Harvey Kuenn?

 

As others have said, the most important role of a manager is managing the personalities in the clubhouse. Other biggies are being able to get along with the GM and owner, and identifying which are the most productive players. Buck Rodgers I'm sure was sounder on the moves than Kuenn, but he lost the players.

 

The strengths and weaknesses of this team are pretty obvious. The low OBP of the offense wastes a lot of the home runs. The starting pitching over the course of the season has actually been better than people think, but the bullpen's one of the worst in baseball no matter how you slice it. No manager could manage this bullpen well, unless he actually got the relievers to issue fewer hits and walks. If you want to blame Yost or Maddux or Melvin for not developing enough bullpen talent, that's a lot bigger issue in wins and losses than switching this guy for that guy. For most of the season we've been one or two men short of what the good bullpens have. Blame Yost for that if you want. George Bamberger was the best I've ever seen at developing pitching talent, and maybe Yost is no Bamberger, or Yost/Maddux is no LaRussa/Duncan or Cox/Mazzone. Not being able to fill the pitching staff with quality guys is a lot bigger than who pitches in what spot. As for the OBP, I don't see a lot of options that Yost had on the team, but again, if you want a new manager he has to deliver results in that area.

I don't understand how you can say this, and also say that you don't agree that "the idea of a manager is chess match stuff."

Anyway, I think I understand your point. The team's losing because of poor starting pitching, in addition to poor OBP (which I would replace with defense), more than Yost's decisions. I think most would agree, but that doesn't diminish the fact that the poor decisions Yost has made has cost the team wins. The complaints about Yost is not the options he has, but how he doesn't utilizes them.

 

And I vehenemently disagree with the position that the #1 job of a manager is managing personalities. These are professional ball players, and young ones at that. Where are the clubhouse leaders? Chemistry does not breed winning.

[homer]

The fact of the matter is we had arguably our best pitcher out there to get one out and he didn't get it done. Plain and simple. And if Mench bats for Counsell, who plays third? Dillon? Anyone who thinks Yost had something to do with this loss is over managing the game.

[Principessa21]

The fact of the matter is we had arguably our best pitcher out there to get one out and he didn't get it done. Plain and simple. And if Mench bats for Counsell, who plays third? Dillon? Anyone who thinks Yost had something to do with this loss is over managing the game.

I agree, but I don't think anyone is blaming Yost for today's lost.

 

[giffted1]

The idea that any manager is going to win a ton of games on the chess match type of stuff is not something I agree with. So I guess I don't agree with all the bashers who think that Yost cost us 5 or 7 or 10 games this year by not making the right move. Yeah, it's important to make the moves as well as you can. But people overestimate the amount that it matters in wins and losses. They also overestimate how many managers are really very good at that sort of stuff. Dusty Baker? Bob Brenly? Don Zimmer? Sparky Anderson? Harvey Kuenn?

 

As others have said, the most important role of a manager is managing the personalities in the clubhouse. Other biggies are being able to get along with the GM and owner, and identifying which are the most productive players. Buck Rodgers I'm sure was sounder on the moves than Kuenn, but he lost the players.

 

The strengths and weaknesses of this team are pretty obvious. The low OBP of the offense wastes a lot of the home runs. The starting pitching over the course of the season has actually been better than people think, but the bullpen's one of the worst in baseball no matter how you slice it. No manager could manage this bullpen well, unless he actually got the relievers to issue fewer hits and walks. If you want to blame Yost or Maddux or Melvin for not developing enough bullpen talent, that's a lot bigger issue in wins and losses than switching this guy for that guy. For most of the season we've been one or two men short of what the good bullpens have. Blame Yost for that if you want. George Bamberger was the best I've ever seen at developing pitching talent, and maybe Yost is no Bamberger, or Yost/Maddux is no LaRussa/Duncan or Cox/Mazzone. Not being able to fill the pitching staff with quality guys is a lot bigger than who pitches in what spot. As for the OBP, I don't see a lot of options that Yost had on the team, but again, if you want a new manager he has to deliver results in that area.

I'll second the post of the year comment. I'm a Yost supporter, but I'll admit Yost may have cost us a couple of wins...all managers make bad moves that might cost their team wins. If someone can show me a manager that hasn't made a bad move, I'll give them a cookie or something.

 

[Timmy McShea]

Ned is not the right manager to get this team to the next level, pure and simple. His decisions have cost this team dearly on a number of occasions throughout the year. Ned seems to be a decent guy, maybe a bie egotistical, he'd make a heck of a bench coach. Regardless, Ned will most likely not be retiined and Jenkins needs to go right with him. The team needs an ass kicker, one that will step up to the pressure game in and game out. Girardi wouldn't be bad but he has no experience managing a winner. Dusty would be worse. LaRussa and Jockety are a package deal. Perhaps a guy like Larry Bowa or Bobby Valentine?

[Fatter than Joey]

Everyone bashes Yost but why doesn't anyone ever bash Mike Maddux or any of the bench coaches? There's a reason why they have 3 coaches in the dugout, they talk about the decisions game-wise its just not Yost.

 

Yost's coaches are his responsibility. They take their lead from Yost.

 

If someone can show me a manager that hasn't made a bad move, I'll give them a cookie or something.

 

This is a silly argument. This would be like saying "Show me a pitcher that hasn't given up a HR" -- we are discussing the degree of the mistakes, and just because there isn't a perfect manager, is irrelevant to whether Yost is good or bad.

 

Anyone who thinks Yost had something to do with this loss is over managing the game.

 

I think everyone recognizes that Yost was not Goat #1 on Sat. However, CoCo's screwup is pretty cut and dry. He gave up a HR. That sucked, and that pretty much wrapped up talking about CoCo. Yost's mistakes is much more subjective, and the volume of discussion should not be an measurement of his culpability, rather the subjective nature of Yost's impact.

 

It still bothers me he takes Braun out of EVERY game, and doesn't consider taking Weeks oout.

[windiv07]

Maybe I missed it in reading all these posts on Saturday's loss, but I didn't see any comments on Hall's third strike bunt foul-out in the inning previous to the Counsell third strike bunt foul-out. Two innings in a row bunting 2 strikes. My friends, that is something that even a little league manager knows better than to do. My anger with the defiance of basic baseball common sense only increases as this season slips away.

[badgerbob72]

Ok, I've heavr everyone ask why make the defensive substution for Braun and Not Weeks. Here is Why

 

Braun 104 Games, 875 Innings 22 Errors, .903 Fielding %

Weeks 103 Games, 911 Innings 13 Errors .973 Fielding %

--Source, Brewers.com

 

I think when put side by side, its easy to see that Weeks is much less of a liability in the feild compared to Braun. (FYI, Hardy has a .973 feilding%, and Counsell is 1.000, yet to commit an error).

 

Now for the question, Pinch hitting for Counsell, Lets look at the situation again

 

Top of 10, 1 out, Brewers lead by one.

Stocker (teams fastest player) on third, Hall on first

Defense was playing double play depth (Game Day doesn't give full details, but there was TWO pickoff attemts to first.)

Ring (LHP) on the mound.

 

Now, I have no problem with the attempted bunt to gain an insurance run. (it's called small ball) I do beleive theat Stocker (unless he gets a HORRIBLE jump) would score on any bunt to the right side of the diamond. You have a pitcher trying to cover who falls off to to the left side of the mound, so will have to take 2-3 extra steps crossing the mound compared to a RHP. Counsell is one of the teams best bunters, so I let him go to the plate and it allows me to keep his glove in the game.

 

To everyone wanting to pinch hit Mench, who will you bring in to play 3rd base in the bottom of the ninth and please justify you choice as being better then Counsell. (and for all those who like to use what happend after the choice, remember Counsell make a great play on Jones shot down the line for out one, which if allowed by would have went for extra bases)

[Fatter than Joey]

I think when put side by side, its easy to see that Weeks is much less of a liability in the feild compared to Braun.

 

Errors are a bad/incomplete way to look at this, especially when comparing players at different positions.

 

Braun is the worst fielding 3b in the NL, and Weeks is probably in the bottom two or three 2bs. Clearly Counsell is better than both. However Yost needs to look at the probability a ball will be hit to each position, depending on the hitters and consider the need for DPs, etc. removing Weeks instead of Braun may be a better strategic decision, esp. if you could use a hit which Braun is much more likely to deliver.

 

I think the defensive subbing has gotten out of hand, and Yost has fallen into his routine where in EVERY Xth inning Braun gets taken out, w/o much thought to the scenario. I think that there are scenarios in which Braun should come out, -- I think there are scenarios he should stay in, as his bat will be needed, -- and I think there are scenarios where you could take out Weeks and improve the D, and not take such a hit offensively.