Ned Yost Yay or Nay thread: Hardball Times rips Yost (part 2)

[Ennder]

Yost has reasons for what he does, just sometimes they are really bad reasons. Sticking with mench against a righty because Jenkins had a bad week is just a terrible way to manage a ballclub. Mench is the worst hitter on the team against righties, there is no way he should ever face one with the game on the line, I dont' care what the other players stats are against that pitcher or in the last week.

 

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Continued from:

 

viewtopic.php?p=230514#p230514

 

Original Lead:

 

viewtopic.php?t=8606

[Blazer25]

Nay. Fifty times Nay. Even if we make the playoffs. We generally win in spite of this guy.

Tonight's game was actually well managed for Yost BUT...

If he contiunes to take Braun out with 2-4 run leads and more than one inning left for "defensive reasons" I'll scream! He's done this two days in a row and it cost us a chance to have one of our top 2 hitters at the plate, with men on, late in the game. Inexcusible if you ask me. 9th inning defensive replacements are fine but the 8th or 7th?

Ned, if you want to get your fishing buddy Counsell some defensive innings put him in for ole #23...not our second best offensive player!

And anyone who thinks Yost isn't in love with the bunt please explain how you have Corey Hart (2-3 with 2 doubles) bunt with your team up a run in the 8th inning and 0 OUTS!

YOSTED!

[logan82]

Hart has bunted for hits several times this year. I would be willing to bet that if Graffy was still healthy we would see both Weeks and Braun pulled for defensive reasons. It is just a lesser of 2 evils. Weeks plays good defense compared to Braun.

[DougJones43]

Hart has bunted for hits several times this year.

 

Hart also carries an .874 OPS, and that bunt was clearly a sacrifice attempt. Hart wasn't going for the bunt single there.

 

I think bunting with your #5 hitter is sheer silliness, and I disagree with it whole-heartedly in almost every single situation. Bunting with Hart there basically ensured a small inning. With 2 on, nobody out, and one of your best hitters at the plate, that's the time a team should go for a big inning to put the game out of reach. Instead, we ended up giving away outs and being satisfied to get 1 lousy run in the inning. With that kind of approach, and a disaster-prone bullpen to boot, it's no wonder this team has squandered so many leads. It didn't blow up in our face this time, but that doesn't make it right. It's a strategy that has failed enough already for one year, and I'm sick of seeing it.

[TooLiveBrew]

With regards to DJ's post - are any of you "All you guys do is second-guess the moves that backfire" people around? This is not the first time someone has made a post like this. Eegads. Whaddya know, the complaints against Yost aren't always 20/20 hindsight -- sometimes people just find fault in strategy, and don't like the decision-making.

[logan82]

With regards to DJ's post - are any of you "All you guys do is second-guess the moves that backfire" people around? This is not the first time someone has made a post like this. Eegads. Whaddya know, the complaints against Yost aren't always 20/20 hindsight -- sometimes people just find fault in strategy, and don't like the decision-making.

 

I wouldn't be one of those guys. I am the guy who thinks that Yost gets second guessed with everything he does. I also believe it is misplaced frustration with the Brewers current record and the fact people thought we were better than we really were. I still don't believe that a manager makes much of a difference in the W/L record of a team.

[DougJones43]

I am the guy who thinks that Yost gets second guessed with everything he does. I also believe it is misplaced frustration with the Brewers current record...

I can assure you that my philosophies on bunting with a #5 hitter, or using Greg Aquino caliber pitchers in high-leverage situations would not change one iota if the Brewers had a better record.

 

I was one of the only people on this board who disagreed with a lot of Ned's decisions earlier on, when the Brewers were winning. I've disliked Ned's philosophies and managerial atttributes for a very long time, and anybody who posts here regularly can attest to that. When I questioned the mighty Brewers earlier in this season, I was usually told to keep quiet and stop being a malcontent, because the Brewers were in 1st place and I should just enjoy it. Now that we're losing, people who disagree with Ned are called second-guessers and bandwagon-jumpers. Is there any appropriate time or manner in which to question or criticize a manager? I guess I just disagree that we should always just assume that he knows best (he was a backup catcher after all, he has some kind of magical sixth sense for "The Game" that we could only dream of!), and it's completely up to the players to come through no matter how ridiculous of a situation he puts them in.

[lcbj68c]

I'm neither yay or nay. I'd rather watch the players than armchair manager. There is no 100% method to any move, it's much less percentags in baseball like simple batting averages. somewhere between 25 and 33% of the time, the guy will come through. It's up to his performance if he does or not. Sometimes he does, sometimes he doesnt. In the case of hitters, I can't get bent out of shape if he doesn't, because averages tell me he doesn't 67-77% of the time. If a manager's decision fails, surely the other option would have worked statement simply doesn't work for me.

[logan82]

I'm neither yay or nay. I'd rather watch the players than armchair manager. There is no 100% method to any move, it's much less percentags in baseball like simple batting averages. somewhere between 25 and 33% of the time, the guy will come through. It's up to his performance if he does or not. Sometimes he does, sometimes he doesnt. In the case of hitters, I can't get bent out of shape if he doesn't, because averages tell me he doesn't 67-77% of the time. If a manager's decision fails, surely the other option would have worked statement simply doesn't work for me.

 

I agree with that. Judging by the sheer volume of stuff that has been brought up, the Brewers would be 154-8 at the end of the season if Yost had not made some mistake here or there for every game they lost.

[DougJones43]

I agree with that. Judging by the sheer volume of stuff that has been brought up, the Brewers would be 154-8 at the end of the season if Yost had not made some mistake here or there for every game they lost.

 

Who said anything like that? Seriously? Exaggerating to paint the critics as "absurd" is about as lame as an arguing point can get. Do you really think it's out of the realm of possibility that with a different manager, this team could be something like 74-64 instead of 70-68? It's only a 4 game difference over the course of the season, but it would put us 10 games over .500 instead of 2, and we would be firmly in 1st place rather than battling it out with the Cubs and Cardinals. Laugh all you want at the idea, it's very plausible that a manager could easily make that kind of difference.

[logan82]

Do you really think it's out of the realm of possibility that with a different manager, this team could be something like 74-64 instead of 70-68?

 

It is not out of the realm of posibility, but I do not think it is very likley.

[TooLiveBrew]

Amen, DJ. I'm getting sick of being told how crazy I am. Lcbj, your point on how a difference in percentages (an example of something over which a manager does sometimes directly affect) is negligible is just plain off. Your throw-away of a ten-point percentage gap in either way is exactly why you aren't understanding why the critics have beef. A .330 hitter is a significant upgrade over a .250 hitter, so why would you want your manager to either stick with or sub in the inferior player - or maybe better stated, why wouldn't you be upset if he did so?

[DougJones43]

It is not out of the realm of posibility, but I do not think it is very likley.

 

Well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one. I think it's very likely the Brewers could have a much better record with somebody other than Bozo T. Manager running the show.

[logan82]

I just believe that a manager's decision making has less impact than what the players do on the field. For every game Yost loses one way another manager would lose another way. Find me a manager who uses his closer before the late 8th or 9th inning, high leverage situations, and I will get on board. Until then I will believe that all managing has more to do with managing the clubhouse and player egos than in game decisions.

[DougJones43]

I just believe that a manager's decision making has less impact than what the players do on the field.

 

 

Of course talent plays more of a role than the manager. I don't really see how that fact illustrates that a manager's role is as marginal and unimportant as you're claiming.

 

Find me a manager who uses his closer before the late 8th or 9th inning, high leverage situations, and I will get on board. Until then I will believe that all managing has more to do with managing the clubhouse and player egos than in game decisions.

 

First off, the high-leverage situation (where he used Aquino) on Monday was the 8th inning. And there were 2 outs. I can find you plenty of managers who would summon their closer to record the last 4 outs of a game. Especially during a pennant chase, where managers should be pulling out all the stops, not using guys with an ERA near 6 who have been in the minors all year.

 

Second, I couldn't really disagree more with your assertion that managing is all about maintaining a good clubhouse, while strategy isn't important. There have been great teams that were disorderly and didn't get along. I've never really seen any evidence that a "good clubhouse" wins games. Good strategy is much more equatable to winning.

[endaround]

The thing with the Hart bunt was that it not only took the bat out of Hart's hand, it took the bat out of Jenkins hand as well. So the two players who were clutch in the game got taken out. Yost playing the "flow" again I guess

[mark brouhard is number on]

did i miss something. they won yesterday right? and yet your still complaining about decisions. give it up! hart bunting might not have been a popular decisions but if it gets in another run, i'm all for it. now some of you are complaining just for the sake of finding something wrong with ned in every game. http://static.yuku.com//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/mad.gif

[sheethead]

did i miss something. they won yesterday right? and yet your still complaining about decisions. give it up! hart bunting might not have been a popular decisions but if it gets in another run, i'm all for it. now some of you are complaining just for the sake of finding something wrong with ned in every game. http://static.yuku.com//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/mad.gif

It was definitely a tactical error. Yost should have known they would walk Jenkins and pitch to Johnny DP Estrada. Hart hasn't even hit into a DP this year. The bunt was a bad idea in that situation.

[mark brouhard is number on]

no it wasn't. you just hate yost

[Fatter than Joey]

Yes it was, you just love Yost.

[sheethead]

I don't hate Yost, and I have never said that. Hate is best reserved for objects rather than people in my book. What I don't like is how he manages the game. Putting a bat in Estrada's hands with the bases loaded vs. Hart and Jenkins with 2 on and nobody out is a BAD MOVE. If you can't see that, then I know why you back Yost.

[mark brouhard is number on]

dude i've probably played and forgot more baseball than you ever will, so i wouldn't go there. i just don't let my dislike for a player or manager cloud my judgement. i have never said i love yost or hate him all i know is he is our manager now and i will support him till he isn't. he's not just guessing out there, he has valid reason for every decision he makes, and you don't know all that goes into it. putting guys on second and third with one out is never a bad idea, especially in a one run game. that's 2 guys in scoring position and one out. whose to say hart and jenkins would have done anything. then you got first and second still and two out. use some sense or have a decent argument to back up the nonsense.

[twobrewers]

Putting a bat in Estrada's hands with the bases loaded vs. Hart and Jenkins with 2 on and nobody out is a BAD MOVE.

I completely agree. I was excited to see Hart batting with 2 players on base. Hart doesn't hit into DP - and has been an RBI machine lately. As soon as the walk Jenkins, however, my heart sank to my stomache as I realized Estrada was up next. Granted he BARELY got a ball deep enough to score a run - but I think Estrada has a better chance of hitting into a DP that hitting a sac fly.

[Fatter than Joey]

ranted he BARELY got a ball deep enough to score a run - but I think Estrada has a better chance of hitting into a DP that hitting a sac fly.

 

Yep -- and a good throw nails Braun.

[endaround]

So lets see if I understand this. You can't complain when Yost makes a move and the Brewers lose because you only complain when the Brewers lose. you can't complain about Yost when the Brewers win because, hey they WON! I guess you can only complain about Yost after suspended games.