Ned Yost Yay or Nay thread: Hardball Times rips Yost (part 3)

[TooLiveBrew]

exactly what I thought, end - but I refrained from piling on...until now, I guess http://static.yuku.com//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/wink.gif

[logan82]

The point is that you can't expect more wins because some players had good years and ignore that many players had really bad years.

[TooLiveBrew]

I don't ignore that, but I agree some do.

[logan82]

exactly what I thought, end - but I refrained from piling on...until now, I guess http://static.yuku.com//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/wink.gif

Nah, go ahead.http://static.yuku.com//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/smile.gif I should have either looked up his stats or left him out.

 

Edit: At this point anytime somebody speaks up for Yost there is almost always piling on.

[Fatter than Joey]

1. Hall would follow up his best season by falling on his face.

 

Hall was a disappointment -- I am sure his move to CF didn't help.

 

2. Jenkins and Mench would put up pretty poor numbers despite playing with a platoon advantage all season.

 

I think everyone was prepared for Mench to suck, I don't think we were prepared to see Mench get so many ABs against RHP from Yost.

 

3. Capuano instead of being a solid #2 starter would not win a game the second half of the season.(Not his fault completley)

 

Yost didn't help Cappy at all, with the BP. or otherwise.

 

4. Sheets would be out for a good portion of the season.

 

Sheets missed about 10 starts. Yost stupidly pitched him on 3 days rest. Our rotation made a high pct. of its starts. -- plus guys like Yo and Villy filled in admirably for Sheets.

 

5. I don't think anybody thought we had a good defense, but I don't think anybody thought it would be as bad as it has.

 

The defense was horrible. I agree 100%.

 

How many is debatable, but I suspect it is no more than 2-3.

 

I am quite certain it was more than 2-3.

 

I don't want to blame Yost exclusively for 2007, however I think Yost sucks at managing -- and I have seen enough of his circus these last 5 years.

 

My new concern is that he hasn't endeared himself to the fans, and I think he has fostered an adversarial relationship with a lot of the Brewers fanbase.

[DuWayne Steurer]

My new concern is that he hasn't endeared himself to the fans, and I think he has fostered an adversarial relationship with a lot of the Brewers fanbase.

I agree with that. He's done an awful lot of complaining about the fans this year. I'm certain that even Yost knows more about managing than the vast majority of the fans, but that doesn't mean he should come out and be so snippy and snide about it. I don't think Milwaukee is the only city in MLB where fans question managerial moves Ned.

 

Also, this is a minor gripe, but I want to voice it nonetheless. With today being likely Jenkins last game in a Brewers uni, and having been a fan favorite for much of his time here, why would it have hurt for Ned to hit him 4th instead of Gabe frickin' Gross in a game that didn't matter? I know Jenks has had a rough September, but Gross has been worse. Not a big deal, I just think it would have been a nice gesture.

 

 

(offset quote --1992)

[don1481]

Sitting at Miller Park on Saturday waiting for the game to begin, my dad and I had a discussion about Ned's mis-management of the 'pen eventually being the rotation's undoing, since Ned loved to go to the 'pen early and "shorten" the game more than he had to in the beginning part of the season. Basically we both agreed that the 'pen got overworked so much early on that when the rotation couldn't go deeper into games later in the season (see Vargas' inability to go deep, Yo's strict pitch/total innings counts, Capuano's struggles, and so forth), the 'pen was already far too run down to be of use. Ned basically gambled that the pen wouldn't tire and also that the rotation would be able to consistently go deeper into games later on in the season.

 

Now... it looks like Ned lost on both of those gambles, and accordingly, the Brewers had a monstrous collapse on their hands. Ned should absolutely be held accountable for this and let go. Yes - while the players are ultimately the ones who didn't perform, Ned's decision-making - both at an in-game and on a season-long strategic level - should be held against him.

[Legends]

Wherever Terry Stotts is now, is where Ned should be come next April.

[clancyphile]

Sitting at Miller Park on Saturday waiting for the game to begin, my dad and I had a discussion about Ned's mis-management of the 'pen eventually being the rotation's undoing, since Ned loved to go to the 'pen early and "shorten" the game more than he had to in the beginning part of the season. Basically we both agreed that the 'pen got overworked so much early on that when the rotation couldn't go deeper into games later in the season (see Vargas' inability to go deep, Yo's strict pitch/total innings counts, Capuano's struggles, and so forth), the 'pen was already far too run down to be of use. Ned basically gambled that the pen wouldn't tire and also that the rotation would be able to consistently go deeper into games later on in the season.

 

Now... it looks like Ned lost on both of those gambles, and accordingly, the Brewers had a monstrous collapse on their hands. Ned should absolutely be held accountable for this and let go. Yes - while the players are ultimately the ones who didn't perform, Ned's decision-making - both at an in-game and on a season-long strategic level - should be held against him.

As a counter-point, if Gallardo's arm fell off in 2009, as Kerry Wood's has, we'd probably be complaining.

One division crown in 2007 for Gallardo giving the Brewers 8-10 seasons, most as a legit #1.

 

[TooLiveBrew]

Mainly to don1481, but to anyone else who cares, I posted this in lithium75's "Doug Melvin: Is he alive?" thread (from Melvin's interview on 1250 AM) -

 

"...and I'm a big believer that Chris [Capuano] maybe should've stayed in the rotation, but I understand, you know, why we did it. Um, and then we started tinkering with the rotation, and then Villanueva went into the rotation later on after we sent him down, and then Gallardo went into the rotation by need because of Ben Sheets and I - I just think that you become a weaker - uh, there's some weaker links then in the bullpen, and that I think ended up happening.

I think that if we could've - you want 100 starts out of your top three starters. They have to stay injury-free, they have to perform well, and if we'd been able to just keep Gallardo and Villanueva in the bullpen, they'd have given us those innings - to get to the 8th and 9th inning, which has probably hurt us the most - the 6th and 7th inning. So I think the rotation, overall, has hurt us a little bit in that regard, and there's not much you can do about it - you just go out there and play."

 

-- Doug Melvin

 

Take that for what it's worth, but I was shocked to hear the bold-faced part drop from Melvin's mouth, and some of the rest that follows sounds a bit like covering his tracks in case anyone would say he'd slammed/criticized Yost. Yes, I know this is coming from the guy with the upside-down picture of Yost as his avatar. http://static.yuku.com//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/wink.gif

[Schlitz001]

I'm sorry if I missed a few (dozen) pages, but with Attanasio and Melvin is there really a chance that Yost won't be the manager for next year. My opinions aside, we seemed to be pretty set at the beginning of the season.

[bjkrautk]

Another thing that bears mentioning is that people keep referring to the 24-10 start as the high water mark of the season -- as if the 14 games-over-.500 can be talked about as merely a good (though aberrant) run in the early part of the year. The fact is, the Brewers got back to 14 games over .500 on July 2, when they beat Pittsburgh to go 48-34.

 

So, clearly, they had to play especially brutal baseball over the final three months to wind up 82-80, or 83-79. That wasn't my expectation at all. Did I expect them to extend their margin over .500 after that point in early July? Not really. But I didn't expect them to stumble so badly (again!) in the second half.

I brought this up, back in reply #1081:

 

And, for the record, I think that 24-10 is a bit of a misnomer. Look back on who they played during that first 34 games:

Dodgers - 3 games (2-1); .506 win rate (2007 season)

Cubs - 6 games (3-3); .525

Marlins - 3 games (2-1); .430

Cardinals - 5 games (4-1); .468

Reds - 2 games (1-1); .449

Pirates - 6 games (5-1); .430

Astros - 6 games (4-2); .443

Nationals - 3 games (3-0); .453

 

Maybe if the Brewers could keep playing sub-500 teams all year....they could have kept up that pace. They were only 5-4 against winning teams. The first month isn't representative of the rest of the season, which is why I think it's unfair to have re-adjusted expectations based on that record. I look at where they are now, and it's not that far off from the overall performance that I expected back in March.

 

When half of the NL finishes with records at or above .500, a stretch in which a team plays only 9 games out of 34 against winning teams is an abberation. It's no coincidence that your sample cuts off just before series against the Mets, Phillies, Twins, Dodgers, Padres, and Braves after all. After that stretch (with the Twins being the only sub-.500 opponent), they were 29-24. 162 games is just another small sample.

(Note: since not all Yuku members see the same number of posts per page, I changed "on p. 55" to "in reply #1081" --1992)

[don1481]

As a counter-point, if Gallardo's arm fell off in 2009, as Kerry Wood's has, we'd probably be complaining.

One division crown in 2007 for Gallardo giving the Brewers 8-10 seasons, most as a legit #1.

 

If I was only talking about Gallardo, I could agree with this; however, I was talking about the starting pitching as a whole, and Gallardo wasn't even up when Ned was over-using his bullpen earlier in the season.

 

If we do want to go off of how Ned handled Gallardo, yes, there are several examples of Ned keeping Yo in far too long just because, well, he was "cruising" or whatever excuse Ned wants to provide.

 

TLB - my discussion revolves solely around the events in April/May/June when the Brewers were seemingly "running away" with the division. Doug's discussion points, while interesting, revolved around the latter portion of the season. Hmm... that makes me wonder - is Doug really all that aware of the causality of the events from earlier this season that led to the pen being run down and - after CV the Better being moved into the rotation, for example - having weak links (see also: Spurling, Chris; Wise, Matt; et al). I'm sure he is, but he's trying to at least save face in public.

[logan82]

Sitting at Miller Park on Saturday waiting for the game to begin, my dad and I had a discussion about Ned's mis-management of the 'pen eventually being the rotation's undoing, since Ned loved to go to the 'pen early and "shorten" the game more than he had to in the beginning part of the season. Basically we both agreed that the 'pen got overworked so much early on that when the rotation couldn't go deeper into games later in the season (see Vargas' inability to go deep, Yo's strict pitch/total innings counts, Capuano's struggles, and so forth), the 'pen was already far too run down to be of use. Ned basically gambled that the pen wouldn't tire and also that the rotation would be able to consistently go deeper into games later on in the season.

 

Now... it looks like Ned lost on both of those gambles, and accordingly, the Brewers had a monstrous collapse on their hands. Ned should absolutely be held accountable for this and let go. Yes - while the players are ultimately the ones who didn't perform, Ned's decision-making - both at an in-game and on a season-long strategic level - should be held against him.

I apologize in advance if I am misinterpreting what you are saying, but when managers refer to shortening the game they are usually talking about having a dominant closer and/or set up man who makes the game 7-8 innings instead of 9. They are not talking about removing starters early. Again, I apologize if I misinterpreted what you wrote.

 

Looking at just the months of May - June(47-33 record), the starts break down like this

<5 innings 9

5 innings 20

6 innings 31

7+ innings 20

 

Going through there were 13 starts where the pitcher did not reach either a minimum 7 innings or 90 pitches. Of those, 3 were starts where Sheets or Capuano had to be removed because of injury. One was a spot start where Villanueva, who was not stretched out to start, had to replace Capuano at the last minute. That leaves the following starts, 4/23, 4/27, 5/11, 5/13, 5/14, 5/18, 5/23, 6/8, and 6/10. Looking at game logs only a couple of those were a case where the starter might have been removed too soon. Looking through the games it was alarming to see how many 6 inning, 95+ pitch games there were.

[DougJones43]

Tom Haudricourt wrote an article today called 10 reasons the Brewers lost the N.L. Central. Somehow, Ned Yost wasn't included as being a part of any of those 10 reasons. Instead he included going 6-9 against the Cubs instead of 9-6. Really, Tom? You think if the Brewers would have won more baseball games and lost less, they might have been better? Groundbreaking stuff. That's not a reason for losing, just an example of losing. Pretty laughable if you ask me, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

 

By the way, if managers are fired, how quickly does it usually happen? Would they call a press conference to announce that they are going to retain him for another year? I'd like to know as soon as possible whether or not I'll be attending any Brewer games next year.

[jason21nl]

Tom Haudricourt wrote an article today called 10 reasons the Brewers lost the N.L. Central. Somehow, Ned Yost wasn't included as being a part of any of those 10 reasons. Instead he included going 6-9 against the Cubs instead of 9-6. Really, Tom? You think if the Brewers would have won more baseball games and lost less, they might have been better? Groundbreaking stuff. That's not a reason for losing, just an example of losing. Pretty laughable if you ask me, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

 

By the way, if managers are fired, how quickly does it usually happen? Would they call a press conference to announce that they are going to retain him for another year? I'd like to know as soon as possible whether or not I'll be attending any Brewer games next year.

 

would you seriously not attend Brewers games if Yost is there? I of course can't stand the man, but I wouldn't stop going to games just because the dope is still in charge.

[DougJones43]

would you seriously not attend Brewers games if Yost is there? I of course can't stand the man, but I wouldn't stop going to games just because the dope is still in charge.

 

I will still follow and love the Brewers. It's always going to be that way. However, I won't directly spend any money on the team until Ned Yost is replaced. I won't continue to support the Brewers financially if they are going to continue to tolerate underacheiving and subpar performance, particularly by the manager. If fans are all going to spend their money anyway, why would the team attempt to upgrade? I'm pretty tired of "settling" just because we've had worse in the past.

 

We have a small window where we are going to have an unbelievable amount of young talent. I want this team to go all out for the World Series every year for the next 5 years. I think keeping Yost isn't consistent with doing that, which I personally find unacceptable. I honestly feel he is that much of a liability (plus I didn't care for all his snide attacks on the fans this year), and the only true way to show you think something is unacceptable is to stop buying the product.

[Time for a Miller]

DougJones, you make me laugh. If I weren't convinced of your masculinity I would guess that you were some girl Ned Yost stood up for your junior prom. Your hatred of him just seems illogical to me. I think he did an excellent job managing this young team and he is far less condenscending towards fans/reporters then other MLB managers. I am sure you will recant by next season and I would really enjoy sitting next to you for a game and enjoying a few 6$ beers while you rip Yost's every move (he will be back next year). I'm just thinking that if your willing to pay six dollars for a beer there is no way a man who has so little effect on the outcome of a game will keep you away from Miller Park's green grass, white chalk lines, and perfectly raked infield dirt.

 

I look forward to the offseason and detailed statistical analysis of Yost's performance (slash, non-performance since managers do very little.) I like Brewerfan.net a lot more during the offseason when I need more Brewer talk to fuel my addiction.

[TooLiveBrew]

DougJones, you make me laugh. If I weren't convinced of your masculinity I would guess that you were some girl Ned Yost stood up for your junior prom. Your hatred of him just seems illogical to me.

 

Classy stuff here. DJ's loathing of Yost can be called a lot of things. Illogical is not one of them, as he routinely cites specific examples/evidence to support his stance.

[trwi7]

Wherever Terry Stotts is now, is where Ned should be come next April.

 

If Epi on realgm has taught me anything then Terry Stotts is at a villa in Italy sipping champagne.

[Fatter than Joey]

DougJones, you make me laugh. If I weren't convinced of your masculinity I would guess that you were some girl Ned Yost stood up for your junior prom.... I need more Brewer talk to fuel my addiction.

 

Just stick to the crack.

[Time for a Miller]

Toolivebrew, illogical to me, is quite different then just saying illogical. The "to me" or "IMO" can make a world of difference in how a comment is interptreted. And as far as not being classy, I also said I would enjoy attending a game with DougJones, which was a legitmimate offer. I look forward to meeting up during the offseason with all or any regular posters. It seems some people may take this all a little to seriously. I do not hold a grudge against Fatter than Joey for saying "just stick to the crack."

 

This is complex for me to explain since I could take the oversensitive approach that some of the people on this board take and whine about how he is being condenscending towards me and going against the BF.net code of conduct, but that is dumb. Fatter than Joey and I just have a different approach to how we enjoy baseball. I rarely agree with what he posts, but I always read it and enjoy it.

[Fatter than Joey]

I could take the oversensitive approach that some of the people on this board take and whine about how he is being condescending towards me and going against the BF.net code of conduct, but that is dumb

 

Hey, you mentioned your addiction, I guess I happened to conclude it was to crack, my bad.

 

That actually seems undersensitive to me, generally I am pretty compassionate regarding people and their addictions. Comparing DJ43 to a spurned HS girl and owning to an addiction in the same thread leads one to hasty conclusions about said addiction.

[Time for a Miller]

If Brewer talk fueled crack addictions I bet the Brewers could afford to increase their payroll without raising parking costs.

[Fatter than Joey]

Fair Enough