Ned Yost Yay or Nay thread: Hardball Times rips Yost (part 3)

[Brian the Automator]

It would have been a very, very bad idea to get your starting pitcher ejected in the third inning. Right?

But it's a good idea to get the manager ejected, make the other team mad, and give them a free baserunner in the eighth inning of a one-run game?

 

Sure, it would have been a bad idea in the third, but at least you're giving your team more than six outs to make up for a bad decision if you do it in the third inning.

I didn't say it was a good idea to get the manager ejected. I was responding to your statement that it would have better to throw at him in the third. If you get your starting pitcher ejected in the third, you've not only screwed the team over for that game, but probably the next game as well.

 

[Bruce Ciskie]

But, my main issue is that I just have little time for the constant loser's lament - it's the managers fault. It is nothing more than wishful thinking by fans wanting desperately for the team to be better than they are. Here's what I know, this team has serious flaws - a Number 1 starter who is completely unreliable, a bullpen full of guys that are even less relaible than that, a catcher who can't catch or throw, a CF and LF that combine to hit about .250 and little run production, number 2 and 3 starters that have been somewhere between below average to terrible for the bulk of the year, complete dependence on a rookie and second year pitcher for any sort of rotation stability, possibly the worst defensive line-up in the league. Yet, here we are looking at our first winning season in 15 years, and approaching the final weekend of the season still alive against a verteran team with more talent (at least experienced talent), better pitching, a significantly better bullpen, and a manager widely considered to be among the best in the game.

 

So the manager is beyond reproach because...he's the manager?

 

He has a legitimate ROY favorite, the NL MVP favorite, an emerging threat at second base, an All-Star shortstop, a very good (and tall) young RF/CF, two young stud starting pitchers, one of the better fifth starters you'll find on any team that doesn't have a >$100M payroll, and a great closer. It's not perfect, but with this franchise's limited pursestrings, you're not going to get many teams that are as built to win as this one.

 

What do we get for it? A team in a bad division that's barely over .500 and is constantly shooting itself in the foot. Pitching coach talks to the pitcher until the umpire kicks him off the field, and the pitcher responds with four straight horrible pitches to a .176 hitter. Manager gets himself run from a one-run game because he's in a urination contest with the other dugout. Hitters make mediocre pitchers look like Cy Young favorites, while making Cy Young favorites look like Cy Young favorites.

 

It's not all Ned's fault, and I've about had it with people on the other side broad-brushing me and others like that. But the buck stops with him, and no coach is doing an impeccable job on this team.

[JohnBriggs12]

This will shock everyone. I am going to defend Yost on this one.

 

I don't believe McClung was brought in to hit Pujols. The Brewers were behind by a run and Yost doesn't generally use Turnbow when they are behind. McClung had taken over Wise's role (remember Ned said he would no longer use Wise in close games), and it was his job to get throught that inning, not hit Pujols.

 

If you've watched McClung though, he's a thrower who lacks command. It's been his problem his entire career. If he were trying to hit Pujols, he would probably miss.

 

Yost isn't the brightest, but he's not that dumb either.

 

This whole incident is LaRussa. Suppan didn't come anywhere near Pujols the night before. Suppan has control. If he wanted to hit Pujols he would have, but he didn't. The game at that time was well in hand.

 

Thompson and LaRussa should have both been tossed after Thompson hit Fielder. Remember in that situation the base was open. What really irritates me about the reaction of the Cardinal broadcasters is that it's fine to throw at guys when you're not in a pennant race and the team you are playing is.

[Bruce Ciskie]

I didn't say it was a good idea to get the manager ejected. I was responding to your statement that it would have better to throw at him in the third. If you get your starting pitcher ejected in the third, you've not only screwed the team over for that game, but probably the next game as well.

Oh, I don't disagree. As I said before, this would have been a bad idea too. I see your point, and I freely admit it would have been probably a worse idea.

 

But that doesn't make what he did a good idea, and we seem to agree on that.

 

To me, it just shows that the man's a little bit out of touch with what kind of impact his decisions can have on games. It seems he just assumed that we'd get out of the inning unscathed. And while the odds were in our favor, the fact he assumed this makes me wonder if he's watched this team at all this season.

[sheethead]

This thread has seemed to turn into a debate between 3 types of people. People who think:

 

1. The manager is completely to blame

 

2. The players are completely to blame

 

3. The players and the manager are to blame

 

#1 and #3 seem to have beef with Yost, while #2 has no beef with Yost. How anyone could not have any beef at all with how Yost manages is beyond me, but as long as there are the #1s there will always be the #2s.

[xisxisxis]

Not sure if they changed the rules so that you can activate a guy off the DL in the middle of a game, but that is the only way you would get Parra in the game last night. Not to mention the fact he hasn't pitched in a month. And you're suggesting that would have been the smart thing to do, huh? Any other good ideas?

 

Nice to see the attitude when you're the "genius" who wasn't aware of the availability of Parra.

 

 

But, my main issue is that I just have little time for the constant loser's lament - it's the managers fault.

 

I'm sorry you have such a big cross to bear, but last I recall nobody is here posting as part of their sentence and anyone is free to come and go. Don't let the door hit you on the way out if a little negativity tortures your frail constitution.

[Bruce Ciskie]

This will shock everyone. I am going to defend Yost on this one.

 

I don't believe McClung was brought in to hit Pujols. The Brewers were behind by a run and Yost doesn't generally use Turnbow when they are behind. McClung had taken over Wise's role (remember Ned said he would no longer use Wise in close games), and it was his job to get throught that inning, not hit Pujols.

 

If you've watched McClung though, he's a thrower who lacks command. It's been his problem his entire career. If he were trying to hit Pujols, he would probably miss.

 

Yost isn't the brightest, but he's not that dumb either.

 

This whole incident is LaRussa. Suppan didn't come anywhere near Pujols the night before. Suppan has control. If he wanted to hit Pujols he would have, but he didn't. The game at that time was well in hand.

 

Thompson and LaRussa should have both been tossed after Thompson hit Fielder. Remember in that situation the base was open.

 

1. So you think it was a good idea to put McClung in there to get us out of the eighth? What have you seen him do to make you believe that?

 

2. Why did Turnbow become a good idea only when McClung got run? Has anyone in the dugout researched how poor he is this year with men on base?

 

3. Suppan buzzed Pujols. I wouldn't deny that, no matter what I were trying to argue. I agree that TLR and Thompson should have been run in the second inning, though.

[sheethead]

If you've watched McClung though, he's a thrower who lacks command. It's been his problem his entire career. If he were trying to hit Pujols, he would probably miss.

 

He almost did.

[valpocrewsader]

Am I missing something, or what did Linebrink do to not deserve the 8th? He K'd three batters on 15 pitches and he's the guy in the pen with pennant race experience. I wanted him in the 8th. Without the bean war, requiring a kamakazi, 1-pitch-and-you're-tossed sacrificial lamb, does our best option for the 8th stay out there and take care of Pujols? We won't know, but that seemed smart to me. (Apologies if I'm wrong and they pinch hit for Linebrink in the 7th, but my memory says it was Villy who got pinch hit for at the bottom of 6.)

[endaround]

I didn't say it was a good idea to get the manager ejected. I was responding to your statement that it would have better to throw at him in the third. If you get your starting pitcher ejected in the third, you've not only screwed the team over for that game, but probably the next game as well.

Oh, I don't disagree. As I said before, this would have been a bad idea too. I see your point, and I freely admit it would have been probably a worse idea.

 

But that doesn't make what he did a good idea, and we seem to agree on that.

 

To me, it just shows that the man's a little bit out of touch with what kind of impact his decisions can have on games. It seems he just assumed that we'd get out of the inning unscathed. And while the odds were in our favor, the fact he assumed this makes me wonder if he's watched this team at all this season.

Ned has always and still manages under the assumption of what will happen is what he hopes will happen instead of what likely will happen.

 

[naivin]

But, my main issue is that I just have little time for the constant loser's lament - it's the managers fault. It is nothing more than wishful thinking by fans wanting desperately for the team to be better than they are. Here's what I know, this team has serious flaws - a Number 1 starter who is completely unreliable, a bullpen full of guys that are even less relaible than that, a catcher who can't catch or throw, a CF and LF that combine to hit about .250 and little run production, number 2 and 3 starters that have been somewhere between below average to terrible for the bulk of the year, complete dependence on a rookie and second year pitcher for any sort of rotation stability, possibly the worst defensive line-up in the league. Yet, here we are looking at our first winning season in 15 years, and approaching the final weekend of the season still alive against a verteran team with more talent (at least experienced talent), better pitching, a significantly better bullpen, and a manager widely considered to be among the best in the game.

So the manager is beyond reproach because...he's the manager?

 

He has a legitimate ROY favorite, the NL MVP favorite, an emerging threat at second base, an All-Star shortstop, a very good (and tall) young RF/CF, two young stud starting pitchers, one of the better fifth starters you'll find on any team that doesn't have a >$100M payroll, and a great closer. It's not perfect, but with this franchise's limited pursestrings, you're not going to get many teams that are as built to win as this one.

 

What do we get for it? A team in a bad division that's barely over .500 and is constantly shooting itself in the foot. Pitching coach talks to the pitcher until the umpire kicks him off the field, and the pitcher responds with four straight horrible pitches to a .176 hitter. Manager gets himself run from a one-run game because he's in a urination contest with the other dugout. Hitters make mediocre pitchers look like Cy Young favorites, while making Cy Young favorites look like Cy Young favorites.

 

It's not all Ned's fault, and I've about had it with people on the other side broad-brushing me and others like that. But the buck stops with him, and no coach is doing an impeccable job on this team.

Never said he was beyond reproach. You are only being broad-brushed if you choose to be broad-brushed. I agree with every one of the positives you just sighted, but you seem to be doing a little broad-brushing yourself and discounting the flaws - serious flaws, and when you put the two together what you get is a slighltly better than .500 team, because for every one of those good things, there seems to be something to off-set it. On the one hand you have Braun and Fielder. On the other you have Hall and Jenkins/mench (even though I think Hall will hit again next year). You have Gallardo and Villanueva. Then you have Sheets (well actually you don't have Sheets, thats's the problem) and Suppan. You have an All-Star shortstop, and you have a pathetic catcher. You have an emerging star in Weeks, but you also have his defense, and he contributed nothing for 3/4 of the season. You have a great closer, but you also have the likes of Turnbow, Wise and company, so you either need him to pitch 2 innings every day, or you can't consistently get to him. Despite the star power of Fielder, Braun, even Cordero, the sum of the parts is an average to slightly above average team.

[endaround]

Am I missing something, or what did Linebrink do to not deserve the 8th? He K'd three batters on 15 pitches and he's the guy in the pen with pennant race experience. I wanted him in the 8th. Without the bean war, requiring a kamakazi, 1-pitch-and-you're-tossed sacrificial lamb, does our best option for the 8th stay out there and take care of Pujols? We won't know, but that seemed smart to me. (Apologies if I'm wrong and they pinch hit for Linebrink in the 7th, but my memory says it was Villy who got pinch hit for at the bottom of 6.)

Nope Linebrink was still in the game and was absolutely the best I've seen him as a Brewer last night. He was pulled so they could hit Pujols. I would bet it never entered Yost's mind at that point to keep Linebrink out there.

 

[xisxisxis]

This will shock everyone. I am going to defend Yost on this one.

 

I don't believe McClung was brought in to hit Pujols. The Brewers were behind by a run and Yost doesn't generally use Turnbow when they are behind. McClung had taken over Wise's role (remember Ned said he would no longer use Wise in close games), and it was his job to get throught that inning, not hit Pujols.

 

If you've watched McClung though, he's a thrower who lacks command. It's been his problem his entire career. If he were trying to hit Pujols, he would probably miss.

 

Yost isn't the brightest, but he's not that dumb either.

Putting in a pitcher who "lacks command" to pitch to Pujols is also the best cover for claiming you weren't intentionally trying to hit their batter. You put Suppan in to pitch to Pujols and he hits him then there is NO doubt you were trying to hit the guy. If you put in McClung you have cover. Turnbow was already warming up. Either Nedly knew McClung would get into trouble or he had no faith in him. One option makes our manager dumb the other makes him the stupidest manager on the planet. Neither is defensible behind by 1 run in the eight inning of a season that is slipping away.

 

[JohnBriggs12]

1. Do you think it was a good idea to put McClung in there? What have you seen to make you believe that?

 

Answer: Yost's options there are not good. But he did the very same thing last Thursday trailing the Braves 3-1 and McClung pitched a scoreless 7th. He also used McClung to open the 11th on Saturday. Yost almost never uses Turnbow when they are behind. You could argue all you want that it was a bad decision but my point is that he didn't bring McClung in to drill Pujols.

 

2. Why did Turnbow become a good idea only when McClung got run?

 

Answer: Maybe Spurling could have come in, but who else is there. His hands were tied.

 

3. Suppan buzzed Pujols.

 

Answer: He never came near Pujols. The pitch was slightly up and in. If that wasn't Pujols and LaRussa who thinks the world revolves around his crummy team involved nobody would have thought anything of it. Pujols leaned away from a pitch. He didn't go down in the dirt, or move his feet. It was a ridiculous reaction by LaRussa.

Suppan had absolutely no reason to go after Pujols in that situation. The Brewers were coasting and Suppan is not that kind of guy.

 

"Either Ned had no faith in McClung".

 

Ned rightfully so has very little faith in anyone in his pen. In the aforementioned Saturday game, McClung was removed after walking one batter.

[craigharmann]

I am trying to not believe that Yost didn't bring McClung in to hit Pujols, but I just can't see it. My theory on all of this is that Yost was trying to see how far the "vote of confidence" went. There's no other explanation other than Yost being a horrible manager. He needs to be gone after this year. I'm hoping that these next 4 games may salvage the season, but I have a hard time seeing it. Put me squarely on the nay side.

[naivin]

Actually Linebrink was pulled in favor of Ray King to face Ankiel.

[endaround]

Actually Linebrink was pulled in favor of Ray King to face Ankiel.

Which only happened because Yost wanted McClung to hit Pujols. Otherwise Turnbow would have started the inning or Linebrink could have stayed in. King only pitched so Yost could get even at LaRussa.

 

[Fatter than Joey]

But, my main issue is that I just have little time for the constant loser's lament - it's the managers fault.

 

I don't think its Ned's fault -- I just think he sucks at managing

 

The players are still going at it with 100% effort and a lot of that has to do with the respect they have for him

 

You don't know this -- I am sure $$$ and their competitive nature has a lot to do with it.

 

McClung had taken over Wise's role (remember Ned said he would no longer use Wise in close games), and it was his job to get throught that inning, not hit Pujols.

 

Why wouldn't have Yost just brought in Turnbow then with no one on?

[naivin]

Not sure if they changed the rules so that you can activate a guy off the DL in the middle of a game, but that is the only way you would get Parra in the game last night. Not to mention the fact he hasn't pitched in a month. And you're suggesting that would have been the smart thing to do, huh? Any other good ideas?

Nice to see the attitude when you're the "genius" who wasn't aware of the availability of Parra.

 

 

But, my main issue is that I just have little time for the constant loser's lament - it's the managers fault.

I'm sorry you have such a big cross to bear, but last I recall nobody is here posting as part of their sentence and anyone is free to come and go. Don't let the door hit you on the way out if a little negativity tortures your frail constitution.

 

I think I get it, when you can't attck the argument, attack the person making it. Thanks for the tip, but I think I'll hang around a bit longer.

[Bruce Ciskie]

1. Do you think it was a good idea to put McClung in there? What have you seen to make you believe that?

 

Answer: Yost's options there are not good. But he did the very same thing last Thursday trailing the Braves 3-1 and McClung pitched a scoreless 7th. He also used McClung to open the 11th on Saturday. Yost almost never uses Turnbow when they are behind. You could argue all you want that it was a bad decision but my point is that he didn't bring McClung in to drill Pujols.

 

2. Why did Turnbow become a good idea only when McClung got run?

 

Answer: Maybe Spurling could have come in, but who else is there. His hands were tied.

 

3. Suppan buzzed Pujols.

 

Answer: He never came near Pujols. The pitch was slightly up and in. If that wasn't Pujols and LaRussa who thinks the world revolves around his crummy team involved nobody would have thought anything of it. Pujols leaned away from a pitch. He didn't go down in the dirt, or move his feet. It was a ridiculous reaction by LaRussa.

Suppan had absolutely no reason to go after Pujols in that situation. The Brewers were coasting and Suppan is not that kind of guy.

 

1. So Linebrink and Cordero aren't options? Have I moved into a bizarro-world where a guy like Linebrink who just blew through the seventh on 15 pitches can't come out for the eighth? And is Cordero dead?

 

2. Again, is Cordero dead? Why did Linebrink have to come out? Yes, Ankiel was leading off, but Linebrink was sharp. If Shouse can continually be allowed to face righties, why not let Linebrink face a lefty?

 

3. Are you serious? If Pujols hadn't moved, he would have been hit. I don't know for sure if it was on purpose, but I tend to think it was because of how good a job Suppan was doing with his control. That said, TLR overreacted, as he always does. No doubt about that. But it doesn't excuse throwing at Pujols when we needed to get him out. If you're going to have a urination contest, save it for April.

[Bruce Ciskie]

The players are still going at it with 100% effort and a lot of that has to do with the respect they have for him

 

You don't know this -- I am sure $$$ and their competitive nature has a lot to do with it.

May the pennant race be related to this, too? I mean, perhaps guys are playing hard because they want to win?

[Fatter than Joey]

May the pennant race be related to this, too? I mean, perhaps guys are playing hard because they want to win?

 

Without a doubt.

 

I don't know this -- but I do not get the impression that our young players are behind Ned at all. I think they are playing hard for contracts/place in the rotation -- or because they are competitive and want to win (or some combination).

 

I don't think JJ Hardy e.g., has Ned on his myspace buddies list, -- but of course that is only my speculation.

[windiv07]

This thread has seemed to turn into a debate between 3 types of people. People who think:

 

1. The manager is completely to blame

 

2. The players are completely to blame

 

3. The players and the manager are to blame

 

#1 and #3 seem to have beef with Yost, while #2 has no beef with Yost. How anyone could not have any beef at all with how Yost manages is beyond me, but as long as there are the #1s there will always be the #2s.

Count me as a #3 who sees more of 1 than 2 to be the cause on a game-by-game basis throughout the year. It seems as though the #2s are playing the Potawatomie hat/ball scoreboard game here trying to take our eye off the the manager's hat under which the loss ball is hidden on this issue.

 

In the midst of all this bickering and diversion stemming from the completely unnecessary decision to wait until the 8th to transparently plunk Pujols, yours is perhaps the most salient and cojent comment I have read in this entire thread. A reasonable and well said appraisal of a team that should at this moment definitely be in first place by several games.

[mark brouhard is number on]

Of course they aren't going to quit now, that's not what i was trying to say. I'm saying they could have when they were playing awful in July and August, but they kept plugging away and giving the effort to turn it around, which they have done to a certain extent. quit trying to put words in my mouth. its obvious joey that we do not agree on anything so i'll just leave it be, you have your opinion i have mine. I think they could have layed down when they were playing bad but they didn't and i think ned had a lot to do with it, i'm sure wanting to win helped alot too.

[naivin]

...a team that should at this moment definitely be in first place by several games.

 

I am curious as to your rationale for that position...Why do you believe they should be in first place by several games? If you could turn back the clock, what would you go back and change to make that reality?