Ned Yost Yay or Nay thread: Hardball Times rips Yost (part 3)

[sheethead]

So help me understand...Your position is that you wanted Seth McClung pitching to Albert Pujols?

 

At least you have a chance of getting him out, no matter who you have pitching to him. With 1 out and nobody on, who doesn't pitch to Pujols in that situation? The alternative was to give him a free ride? Eh.

 

He did not put retaliation ahead of winning. The intent was to win, and retaltiation just happened to fit with the timing. Instead of working around Pujols or intentionally walking him, they put one in his ribs.

 

Unfortunately, he was hit on the end of his right elbow. It didn't appear to hurt him one bit.

What position was Turnbow put in exactly, one where he is asked to go in and get 2 outs against future Hall of Famers, Ryan Ludwick, Skip Schumacher, and Kelly Stinett? I guess $2.5 million doesn't go as far as it used to if that is somehow considered an unreasonable request.

 

I agree Turnbow is paid too much money to suck, but at this point in the season the manager knows exactly what he's getting for the money. To put him in another uneasy position after blatantly plunking the hitter before was dumb, plain and simple. Does Turnbow suck, yes. Does Ned Yost know that? He should, and probably does, but does this crap anyway. He's like a friggin' child that always has to get the last word and do what he wants no matter the consequences. And then he has the balls to go into the post game press conference and blame everyone under the sun besides himself. Ned Yost has a child's mentality and can never accept responsibility for his idiot decisions. This is the reason he will never be a good manager. Blame Turnbow because he couldn't clean up his mess? Eh.

[endaround]

we're never going to win or help some of the people who think its all the managers fault for anything that happens during the game. so be it. however, there was no way we were going to pitch to pujols anyway, so why not send a message? there lineup is not very good, you would think we could get 2 outs, even with a guy on first. the problem is the bullpen. i know i can't convince people otherwise, but i know that's the problem. we can't depend on wise or turnbow anymore, and that's 2 of the main people in our pen for the first two thirds of the year. that hurts bad, and it puts other players who are A) not as good and B) not used to these situations in them. that is what is killing this team and what killed them last night. not Ned telling mcclung to hit a guy with one out and noone on base.

Oh it sent a message all right. The message is if you get Ned mad he'll do really stupid things.

 

[windiv07]

So help me understand...Your position is that you wanted Seth McClung pitching to Albert Pujols?

You want to turn the clock back? Okay.

 

Actually, I want Villy plunking Pujols in the 4th (before he hit that that double & scored) which was the next time Pujols is up after the Fielder plunking. Then I would replace Villy (ejected) with Parra, drop Cappy (the jinx) out of the rotation and pitch Villy on 3 days rest after this short outing.

 

What I want is for a manager to do the smart thing, not the stupid thing. That is asking too much in this case.

[sheethead]

we're never going to win or help some of the people who think its all the managers fault for anything that happens during the game. so be it.

 

The task must be especially hard when its 4 or 5 pro-Yosters against everyone else.

[jason21nl]

Hitting a guy at that moment is just plain stupid. Stupid baseball, stupid managing stupid everything. Like someone said, he is going to make an out more times than not. You don't intentionally put runners on base late in games. If you want to send a message, you do it next year. After that beaning, it set it up for the big inning, and they took full advantage of it. Right now anyone defending Yost is just doing so for the sake of arguing and has no real reasons for doing it.

[mark brouhard is number on]

i don't care if i'm the only one to realize its not the managers fault for last night. do i think it was smart that he hit pujols? no but he was going to get pitched around anyway. its the players fault for stranding so many runners on base last night, and turnbow for not being able to throw a strike with 2 outs. or does ned tell them not to get hits and does he make turnbow suck on purpose?

[sheethead]

Completely ridiculous. First off, in your world where the manager is to blame for everything, Yost getting ejected should be a good thing.

 

Unfortunately, Dale Sveum is not an upgrade.

[pretendastronaut]

How are so many people convinced we would have given Pujols an IBB otherwise? It makes even less sense to give him an IBB in that situation. The only time we gave him and IBB was earlier last night when the Cards had a runner at second, that's exactly when you give him the IBB. And I agree Pujols is a spectacular player, but it not like its impossible to get him out.

[jason21nl]

Nobody is blaming Yost for the loss. You guys seem to struggle to understand that. You guys seem to read only what you want to read. Turnbow sucked, Hart left the city of milwaukee on base. We don't deny that. What we are saying is, you don't hit someone, get yourself tossed in a pennant race. You just don't do that. This is just one thing in a line of things that Yost does that you shoudln't do.

[sheethead]

Hitting a guy at that moment is just plain stupid. Stupid baseball, stupid managing stupid everything. Like someone said, he is going to make an out more times than not. You don't intentionally put runners on base late in games. If you want to send a message, you do it next year. After that beaning, it set it up for the big inning, and they took full advantage of it. Right now anyone defending Yost is just doing so for the sake of arguing and has no real reasons for doing it.

 

Exactly. I don't understand where the - he was going to be pitched around and/or walked anyway - logic is coming from. Who does that in the 8th inning, down by one, nobody on base and one out? Who? Where is that logic coming from? Is is coming from friends? Relatives?

[Fatter than Joey]

First off, in your world where the manager is to blame for everything, Yost getting ejected should be a good thing.

 

I think Yost sucks, though I have never stated that he is to blame for everything, nor do I even remotely think that -- the statement above is entirely your rant. When I make posts in this thread, it is primarily to discuss the sucktitude of Yost, not other players -- than can be done in other threads.

 

I think it is a bad thing for Yost to get ejected. It reflects poorly on our organization, and it takes the focus off of winning the game, and more on Yost's beef of the night. Plus in all reality, he is still calling the shots from the clubhouse

 

Getting squeezed by the umps? Come on! Did you watch the game? Do you really think Turnbow was getting squeezed? Those pitches weren't close. Nobody was getting squeezed

 

Granted Turnbow looked awful -- but I guarantee you he had a small strike zone, regardless of his inability to hit it.

 

I understand the appeal of blaming the manager,because it provides an easy answer. Much easier than facing the reality that we need to completely revamp the bullpen if we want any chance of winning next year, or coming to grips with the fact that the bottom of our order has been completely useless

 

Again -- this is 100% you imposing your rant on me. I think Yost sucks, and I think elements of our BP suck -- I think all things that suck should be removed. I wanted Tbow gone years ago, and I took a lot of crap for that.

 

Ned Yost was a childish idiot last night, regardless of the outcome of the game.

 

Your position is that you wanted Seth McClung pitching to Albert Pujols?

 

McClung was brought in with the sole purpose of popping Pujols and getting ejected. McClung actually pitching was never an option on the table.

 

The loss in this game is on the offense and Turnbow.

 

There is no one here that was happy with the team's overall performance last night. Turnbow was bad, Hart had a lot of LOBs, etc. The thing is, this thread is to discuss Ned Yost's impact. There are BP threads, Estrada threads, Sheets threads etc.

 

The difference is, as the year goes on, is that the Nedophiles #1 argument in defense of Yost is now "Turnbow sucks", rather than any tangible good that Yost does.

[naivin]

Actually, I want Villy plunking Pujols in the 4th (before he hit that that double & scored) which was the next time Pujols is up after the Fielder plunking. Then I would replace Villy (ejected) with Parra, drop Cappy (the jinx) out of the rotation and pitch Villy on 3 days rest after this short outing.

 

What I want is for a manager to do the smart thing, not the stupid thing. That is asking too much in this case.

 

Good plan - get the only pitcher you can count on thrown out in the 4th. That definiteley would have helped. Not sure if they changed the rules so that you can activate a guy off the DL in the middle of a game, but that is the only way you would get Parra in the game last night. Not to mention the fact he hasn't pitched in a month. And you're suggesting that would have been the smart thing to do, huh? Any other good ideas?

[jeffy]

i don't care if i'm the only one to realize its not the managers fault for last night. do i think it was smart that he hit pujols? no but he was going to get pitched around anyway. its the players fault for stranding so many runners on base last night, and turnbow for not being able to throw a strike with 2 outs. or does ned tell them not to get hits and does he make turnbow suck on purpose?

That's fine...I disagree that Pujols was going to be pitched around with no one on in a close game. But even conceding that there are still the issues with Yost's subsequent decisions (assuming they were his and not Sveum's and Maddux's).

1. Turnbow often does not do well when he comes in with men on base.
2. After Turnbow walked two, he was still left in to continue with his obvious inability to find the strike zone, despite the fact that he has been having problems in high pressure situations.
3. Cordero has not been used since Saturday and with so few games remaining there was no reason not to use him to keep the game close...certainly with the bases loaded, he could have been brought in to get the last 4 outs.

[Bruce Ciskie]

I know I'm late jumping into this, but I have a couple thoughts:

 

1. Does Ned realize he's managing in the National League? If he wants to retaliate for a beaning, why not throw at the pitcher? After all, letting the pitcher get on base in a random situation is probably about as dumb as giving Pujols a free base in a situation like that one when you have - if you believe the stats - about a 60% chance of getting him out.

 

2. We walked Pujols intentionally in the third inning. Why not do the deed there? Sacrificing Villanueva wouldn't have been any dumber than what we did.

 

3. How sad is it that I would love to see a four-game suspension for Yost get handed down today? http://static.yuku.com//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/indifferent.gif

[gregmag]

Giving the other team a baserunner in that situation is inexcusable. For whatever else Yost has or hasn't done wrong this year, picking the macho baseball code over the pennant race in that situation is completely on him. This is probably about as close to a firing offense as any single act of a manager could possibly be.

 

Greg.

[Brian the Automator]

I know I'm late jumping into this, but I have a couple thoughts:

 

1. Does Ned realize he's managing in the National League? If he wants to retaliate for a beaning, why not throw at the pitcher? After all, letting the pitcher get on base in a random situation is probably about as dumb as giving Pujols a free base in a situation like that one when you have - if you believe the stats - about a 60% chance of getting him out.

 

2. We walked Pujols intentionally in the third inning. Why not do the deed there? Sacrificing Villanueva wouldn't have been any dumber than what we did.

 

3. How sad is it that I would love to see a four-game suspension for Yost get handed down today? http://static.yuku.com//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/indifferent.gif

It would have been a very, very bad idea to get your starting pitcher ejected in the third inning. Right?

 

[Team Canada]

i don't care if i'm the only one to realize its not the managers fault for last night.

 

No, you're the only one to THINK it's not the manager's fault, just like everyone else THINKS that it was a problem. You're not the sole owner of a correct perception of reality here.

 

 

Not sure if they changed the rules so that you can activate a guy off the DL in the middle of a game, but that is the only way you would get Parra in the game last night.

 

Actually, Parra was activated on 9/21.

[shelmark]

Why would we walk Pujols with noone on in the 8th inning of a one run game? Unfortunately, Yost chose to try and beat Larussa, not the Cardinals. In the end, he did neither. What also gets lost a bit in all of this is the fact that it was planned that Turnbow would come in after the beaning. Turnbow is horrific with men on base. We then leave him in with the bases loaded...wha.....did you see the fans standing and screaming when Maddux left the mound without Turnbow? Yost and Larussa should both be suspended for putting the careers of Pujols and Fielder in jeopardy for their own petty squabbles.

[Bruce Ciskie]

It would have been a very, very bad idea to get your starting pitcher ejected in the third inning. Right?

 

But it's a good idea to get the manager ejected, make the other team mad, and give them a free baserunner in the eighth inning of a one-run game?

 

Sure, it would have been a bad idea in the third, but at least you're giving your team more than six outs to make up for a bad decision if you do it in the third inning.

[naivin]

The difference is, as the year goes on, is that the Nedophiles #1 argument in defense of Yost is now "Turnbow sucks", rather than any tangible good that Yost does.

Not sure if I am a Nedophile. If they decided to make a change, I wouldn't really care, but I think he has done a decent job. But, my main issue is that I just have little time for the constant loser's lament - it's the managers fault. It is nothing more than wishful thinking by fans wanting desperately for the team to be better than they are. Here's what I know, this team has serious flaws - a Number 1 starter who is completely unreliable, a bullpen full of guys that are even less relaible than that, a catcher who can't catch or throw, a CF and LF that combine to hit about .250 and little run production, number 2 and 3 starters that have been somewhere between below average to terrible for the bulk of the year, complete dependence on a rookie and second year pitcher for any sort of rotation stability, possibly the worst defensive line-up in the league. Yet, here we are looking at our first winning season in 15 years, and approaching the final weekend of the season still alive against a verteran team with more talent (at least experienced talent), better pitching, a significantly better bullpen, and a manager widely considered to be among the best in the game.

If it was as simple as Turnbow being the only guy to cough up games, and Ned sticking with him when there are better options, I'd be right there with you. It isn't though. Wise, Linebrink, Aquino, Capuano, McClung, Spurling...pretty much everyone but Shouse have not been able to be trusted. When you don't have options, you don't have options.

[BrewCrewForever]

Bottomline for me is Pujols should not have been beaned. They should have pitched to him and tried to get the 2nd out of the inning. Ned should have left that whole "retaliation" thing alone till next year, or just forgot about it all together. You had a chance to win that game and only be 1 game back. Think.

[sheethead]

If it was as simple as Turnbow being the only guy to cough up games, and Ned sticking with him I'd be right there with you. It isn't though. Wise, Linebrink, Aquino, Capuano, McClung, Spurling...pretty much everyone but Shouse have not been able to be trusted. When you don't have options, you don't have options.

 

I would put Cordero in there as well. An option indeed for 4 outs.

[naivin]

Bottomline for me is Pujols should not have been beaned. They should have pitched to him and tried to get the 2nd out of the inning. Ned should have left that whole "retaliation" thing alone till next year, or just forgot about it all together. You had a chance to win that game and only be 1 game back. Think.

 

You know darn well had they done that and he hits one out, or hist a double and scores, whatever...there would be an equal number of people here today calling Ned an idiot for pitching to Pujols ina one run game. That's just baseball. I happen to agree with the decision (at least not pitching to him)...with one out and the likes of Schumacher, Ludwick, etc. coming up, you just don't let Pujols beat you.

[mark brouhard is number on]

One of the main reasons I still think Ned should still be the manager is the players obviously really like playing for the guy and have shown a tremendous amount of resilience this year when they could have folded. They seem to have a tremendous amount of respect for him and are still going all out. We don't see or know a lot that goes on behind the scenes. The players are still going at it with 100% effort and a lot of that has to do with the respect they have for him. You have to take that into affect, This is an extremely young team and he has shown a ton of respect for them all year, which can only help them grow as players in future years. That can't be discounted. I think many fans are getting worse by the year in their win now or the managers gone mode, when many times teams need years like this to build on, and I think ned, doug and hopefully the owner see the big picture much better than many fans do. You can't determine if it gives us any more wins that the players like playing for and respect ned a ton, but it's got to help.

[BrewCrewForever]

Bottomline for me is Pujols should not have been beaned. They should have pitched to him and tried to get the 2nd out of the inning. Ned should have left that whole "retaliation" thing alone till next year, or just forgot about it all together. You had a chance to win that game and only be 1 game back. Think.

You know darn well had they done that and he hits one out, or hist a double and scores, whatever...there would be an equal number of people here today calling Ned an idiot for pitching to Pujols ina one run game. That's just baseball. I happen to agree with the decision (at least not pitching to him)...with one out and the likes of Schumacher, Ludwick, etc. coming up, you just don't let Pujols beat you.

Id rather make a guy beat me then give him a free pass when you already have 1 out you are in the 8th inning and you have a chance to cut a lead to 1 game in a pennant race. Some may have bashed Yost for that, but not me.