Ned Yost Yay or Nay thread: Hardball Times rips Yost (part 3)

[RU Rah Rah]

There is a whole website for that. It was called FireNedYost.com or something like that. A number of the posters on here were members there, and I'm sure they'd love to have another negative critic to join in the Ned hate.

You'll notice that I wrote: "It would be nice to have a clean, game-by-game summary of his foibles (or, potentially, lack thereof)" (emphasis added). I'm not sure how I'm "another negative critic" when I'm very clearly suggesting that maybe he won't mess up.

 

[strawbossisevil]

That fact that you wanted a thread dedicated to it suggests you are already anticipating on having daily things to complain about. I don't think that is beyond common reason, and it really goes against reason to say that you were suggesting otherwise.

[bigredrobbo]

I've said it before, but if Ned, a former backup catcher had been, oh I dunno, a HOF former SS and occasional outfielder wearing #19, then half of his "wrong" decisions would have been excused somehow.

 

His wasn't a sexy hiring back in 2002, and that fact alone influences much of the vitriol, whether posters admit it or not...

[logan82]

It's how he performs as manager - highly subjective, I know.

 

That bolded part hits right at the heart of the matter as far as I am concerned. All the criticism or praise is based mostly on how you think a game should be managed and on how much impact you think in game decisions actually have over the outcome of a ballgame. I personally believe the decisions with the biggest impact are made about who has which spot coming out of spring training. We don't have a really good way to compare managers. Not like with players. Only getting a hit 30% of the time really sucks until you have some basis for comparison and realize that is better than most other people.

 

I really have no problem with a thread pointing out Yost's perceived misdeeds. At least if it is confined to one area you can avoid it or know what you are getting yourself into, much like this thread.

[TooLiveBrew]

One of the following two will not last the entire 2008 season: Ned Yost, "Ned Yost Yay or Nay thread"

[strawbossisevil]

I think both could last the entire 2008 season and beyond. If we make the postseason, but many people on here still nitpick the manager, I see no reason why not. Its not like the Yost haters are ever going to stop hating on the man. They have it in their minds that he is a horrible manager, and I don't see that changing no matter what the results.

[RU Rah Rah]

That fact that you wanted a thread dedicated to it suggests you are already anticipating on having daily things to complain about. I don't think that is beyond common reason, and it really goes against reason to say that you were suggesting otherwise.

Honestly? No. I am generally a systematic guy, and I think it would be interesting to see a comprehensive list of his purportedly questionable moves, game-by-game. I think it would give me a better sense of if he's really consistently lousing things up, or if we're just jumping all over him for the kind of sporadic miscues that are bound to plague any manager over 162 games.

 

[strawbossisevil]

The problem is, it being so subjective, you could make a list of "miscues" for any Major League manager on any given night, especially if you or others are looking for them to "add to the list". It wouldn't prove or disprove a thing, other than the fact that many here don't like him and would do anything to knock him in any way imaginable, that it might prove. Its very very ease to snipe at the manager's moves.

 

Also, many of the moves that would appear to us to be "miscues" may actually not be miscues. For example, on a number of occasions, Yost didn't use his closer in certain games. While some got offended by this practice, it could have been for reasons beyond our knowledge (the closer needed a night off due to his arm being sore, the advice of his pitching coach/bullpen coach on who has been throwing well that night, sickness, advance scouting reports (a player struggles against a certain pitch), common sense managing philosophy (you don't pitch your closer in extra innings on the road) etc.). Often its difficult to judge on what is a good move, and what isn't. Its just not easy to do because we don't have all the information that a manager has.

 

For all of those reasons, it would be very easy to come up with an extensive list, that contains very little substance, but which is "convincing" to those who desire to have a comprehensive "list" of said manager's flaws. If you could come up with a well informed unbiased list, that would be one thing. But that simply isn't possible, especially considering the views of a number of posters on this website, myself included.

[TooLiveBrew]

Its not like the Yost haters are ever going to stop hating on the man. They have it in their minds that he is a horrible manager, and I don't see that changing no matter what the results.

 

To divide this into 'Hatas' and 'Non-Hatas' does a disservice to the entire discussion. I don't think this thread or Ned (one or the other) will be around, because the argument has devolved from actually discussing anything tangible to namecalling. That's just mho, obviously.

[Ennder]

I liked Yost to start 2007 and grew to hate him, i don't see why he couldn't earn my respect back. He made a lot of just terrible moves, there are moves that you can question and not be sure if you are correct or not and then there are idiotic moves like leaving Mench in to face Dempster with the game on the line and Jenkins on the bench. Yost made too many of those sure thing bad moves for me to stick by him last season.

 

He also has to stop doing that little wince/grin thing when one of his bad moves doesn't work, that thing is really frustrating.

[TooLiveBrew]

I liked Yost to start 2007 and grew to hate him, i don't see why he couldn't earn my respect back. He made a lot of just terrible moves, there are moves that you can question and not be sure if you are correct or not and then there are idiotic moves like leaving Mench in to face Dempster with the game on the line and Jenkins on the bench. Yost made too many of those sure thing bad moves for me to stick by him last season.

I'm in the same boat. If that makes me just a 'hata' to some, I guess I can't really do anything to change that. This is not some centuries-old, deeply rooted, tribal hatred for a name or person. There's actually some reality at play, too.

[logan82]

There are many things that Ned does wrong. That stuff didn't bother me as much as all the "idiot manager" and "worst manager in the league" comments. There were also times when Ned got blamed for stuff that was really a stretch. It got to a point at the end of last year where it became "how can we pin this on Yost." That stuff detracts from the real issues.

[sgtcluels]

Great the Yost hate threads started up! And my NY Resolution was to "give Yost a clean slate and not dis him till the season starts". You guys suck... tempting me!

[AJAY]

Jayson Stark from ESPN was on Tim Allen's hot stove program tonight, and he didn't really seem to have anything positive to say about how Yost handled the team last season. He had issues with guys not knowing their roles and having so much switching around in the lineup. He basically said that Ned really needs to learn from last season and not keep making those kind of mistakes.

 

The hosts also mentioned that the Brewers are the only baseball franchise never to have hired a manager with post-season experience.

[TooLiveBrew]

The hosts also mentioned that the Brewers are the only baseball franchise never to have hired a manager with post-season experience.

 

I can't get too worked up over that part. Hurdle didn't have any, Wedge didn't have any... it's so much more about talent on the roster imo.

[trwi7]

Jayson Stark from ESPN was on Tim Allen's hot stove program tonight, and he didn't really seem to have anything positive to say about how Yost handled the team last season. He had issues with guys not knowing their roles and having so much switching around in the lineup. He basically said that Ned really needs to learn from last season and not keep making those kind of mistakes.

 

The hosts also mentioned that the Brewers are the only baseball franchise never to have hired a manager with post-season experience.

 

Damn I knew I forgot to do something today and that something was write a reminder to tell me that show was on tonight.

[logan82]

The hosts also mentioned that the Brewers are the only baseball franchise never to have hired a manager with post-season experience.

 

I can't get too worked up over that part. Hurdle didn't have any, Wedge didn't have any... it's so much more about talent on the roster imo.

Terry Francona?

 

Jayson Stark from ESPN was on Tim Allen's hot stove program tonight, and he didn't really seem to have anything positive to say about how Yost handled the team last season. He had issues with guys not knowing their roles and having so much switching around in the lineup.

The number of lineups used was brought up many times last year. Last I remember the Brewers were right around the middle as far as number of lineups used. Did he expand on which guys didn't know their role? I don't see where a guy hits in the lineup as a very big deal. As long as the manager isn't doing something totally outlandish like the pitcher leading off with Fielder and Braun batting in the bottom of the order.

[Robideaux]

I was pretty indifferent on Ned heading in to last season--probably more positive than negative overall. Probably because I never really felt that a baseball manager has a really big influence on wins and losses and I thought the players generally liked him and played hard even down the stretch in losing seasons.

 

Last year changed my mind. There was a pattern of questionable to bad decisions that eventually wore out my patience. I have to say that the Cubs game (you know the one) was the absolute last straw for me. I am not sure that I have ever witnessed an equally horrible, completely inexplicable strategic decision in a crucial moment of a baseball game. It was indefensible--and still is to this day. Before Mench swung (in between an expletive filled rant aimed at the television) I turned to my friends and said that if I was Mark A., I would fire Yost right after the game win or lose (unless Jenks was hurt, or ill, or something of that ilk). Why? Because results matter, but a manager should also be judged on his decision making process--and that game demonstrated that Yost's decision making process is seriously flawed. It's not that we lost that game (odds are that we still would have lost even with Jenkins at the plate), it's that we have no reason to have faith in Ned to make the right decision next time or the time after that.

 

For the 12 people out there not related to Ned that still think he is the best manager available to the Brewers, I most concede that he has been unfairly blamed for many many things that are not his fault. If a manager makes a decision that is somehow defensible (essentially a coin flip statistically) and it doesn't work out, he shouldn't be bashed. Those criticisms are results-based as opposed to a criticism of his decision making process. I'm not saying that results do not matter--of course they do--in baseball just like any other business, but in a sport where the best teams lose 40% of their games, trying to divine a manager's results based on one game or one play in one game is akin to bashing the CEO of a company if the stock value dips by half a point on one given day. You need a longer span of time to make a results-based criticism of a manager. I am not saying his results are good (or bad necessarily), but I do understand how tiresome it can get to hear people reflexively bash him for decisions that are only clear with the benefit of hindsight. That being said, when your manager makes decisions that don't require hindsight to determine that they are wrong, that when I think its time for him to go...

 

I would fire Yost tonight if it was up to me, but unless the ax falls within the first few weeks of the season, I don't want to see Yost fired during the season--for the simple reason that if he is fired mid-season, it probably means that the team is out of the playoff hunt and nobody wants that. I'm just going to cross my fingers and hope that Doug made Ned do some summer reading or sit down in a room with a "nerd" to learn how to exploit the platoon advantage.

[endaround]

Throwing at Pujols with the season on the line was the last straw. I still can't believe that happened.

[RightFieldCoder]

When Aquino came back up from the minors and was only used late in close games. That was when I stopped supporting Yost's decisions.

[mletto157]

I think if someone does make a thread that is specifically dedicated the mistakes that Ned Yost makes - that people should only be able to post these mistakes while the game is on when he made the mistake, before it goes wrong. This way they aren't looking back on the mistake after it failed and saying it was a bad move (which is usually what happens). Then we can actually see when he makes a mistake that was visibally WRONG. For example that Mench/Jenkins hitting mess... most knew that was a bad move way before it didn't work. Not that it would have worked with Jenks anyway, but it would have been better strategically and statistically.

 

One thing this will also do is let all the arm-chair managers have their fun in trying to actually manage the game while it is being played, while the move is being made. Than they can see what others think of their move. Most likely there are many reasons why that move would be bad. There will be a lot of people that get post things like "he should have used _____ pitcher instead of _____." And someone will quickly be able to point out pitch counts, managing his relievers, etc... You just can't use your best releiver in every game... simple as that... even though most would like to. And since most likely the Crew will be in most of their games this year sometimes we're going to have to throw out a below average releiver, or at least one that isn't our best, when the game is close. Also, most will see that it's impossible to predict when a pitcher will falter unless his pitch count approaches 100. If a pitcher starts to get rocked in the 6th at only 70-75 pitches you'll be able to look in that thread and see that no one said to take him out after the 5th - because he wasn't visibilly tired, and his pitch count was still ok.

 

My point is basically we'll be able to see that none of us on here are better managers than Ned. Not saying he is the best option available for the Crew right now, because I'm sure there are better, but none of those that are better are nobody's posting on a fan site. As many have said, there are a lot of things that we don't know that go into these decisions; including advise from his staff, sickness, injuries, etc... and even when there is a visible fault in his move, a lot of times I'm sure he knew what would have been better, but just wasn't able to do it at the time for probably reasons unknown to the fans.

[Thurston Fluff]

AS FTJ has said many times if Ned learns from his mistakes he'll be ok. One thing I wanted him to do was get an older established mentor type bench coach. I don't think he could have picked a better person to compliment him than he did. If Ned gets the help he needs to help his weakness his strengths will be all that much better. I think he's a good leader of men and handles his players well. If we get that strength without the accompanying weakness there should be no problem in the management side. Of course that all goes for naught if the pen isn't capable of perfroming better than it did last season. No matter how good a strategist this team has it will not help much if the players involved aren't up to the job.

[Fatter than Joey]

I think if someone does make a thread that is specifically dedicated the mistakes that Ned Yost makes - that people should only be able to post these mistakes while the game is on when he made the mistake, before it goes wrong.

 

The In-game threads are exactly that. There are literally thousands of real-time comments already at our disposal. A lot of the Nedophiles will say that we are all second-guessing Ned -- when in reality all of the good and bad is there for anyone who wants to peruse it in the ingame threads

[strawbossisevil]

Yeah, Joey, and most of the time immediately after it goes wrong. Yes, even in those threads. Sure, every now and then someone would say he'd do something differently before hand, but that was far less frequent than the multitudes of 20/20 hindsight second guessers. To say otherwise would be ridiculous.

 

With Yost there may have been a few head scratchers. The Mench situation, the Pujols situation were both clearly something most wouldn't have done. That said, even those instances there was a reason behind them. Mench was having one of his best nights as a Brewer. Pujols is a guy who could hurt you much more with one swing of the bat than a HBP could do (and the Cardinals were the ones who started throwing at us.)

 

Those were the two most obvious ones during the season. They had reasoning behind them, yeah not reasoning that nearly all of us would agree with, but reasoning none the less. I would guess that nearly every manager in the league would have a similar amount of equally bad head scratchers over the course of the season. And that's my point. There just aren't that many SABR minded managers out there who play from behind their calculators. Sticking another guy in there in place of Ned, would probably bring equal results, but that manager might not have the player handling ability that Ned does.

 

Finally, FTJ, you can keep your "Nedophile" name calling to yourself. Not everyone who defends the guy loves him to death, some of us just realize that he's not nearly as bad as posters such as you claim. Repeating it twenty thousand times and calling people names isn't going to make it any more true. And, if I remember correctly is strike worthy on this website.

[TooLiveBrew]

Sure, every now and then someone would say he'd do something differently before hand, but that was far less frequent than the multitudes of 20/20 hindsight second guessers.

 

I agree the second-guessers were more numerous, but especially in 2007's IGTs/chat there were plenty of people who made their comments/'moves' well before the outcome was determined on the field. It was most certainly more than 'every now & then.'

 

calling people names isn't going to make it any more true. And, if I remember correctly is strike worthy on this website.

That's a bit of a stretch - while I respect that you don't appreciate it (for me, getting called a 'hater'/'blind hater' has gotten old), it's not him calling you/anyone some inherently awful thing. Just a word he made up along the way...