Ned Yost Yay or Nay thread: Hardball Times rips Yost (part 3)

[alwz4gbp]

Well said number 59. I too have wondered about Neds intensity. He seems to be fired up now that everyone and their brother (fans) are calling for his head. Do you think this is just a show to appease the fans. I also drew the comparison to Garner the other day. Garner got canned for losing with much less talent. I would love to see what he could do with the talent on this team.

Again, well stated.

[Blazer25]

Which lesson? About Turnbow with inherited runners, about leaving pitchers in until after it is too late, about putting in right-handed hitters against right handed pitching, about putting in left-handed hitters against left-handed pitching, about leaving pitchers in to bat in the top half of the inning and then replacing them in the bottom half, about giving hitters the green light with two outs and the bases loaded after the previous two hitters were walked by the same pitcher, about allowing contact hitters to bunt with 2 strikes (three nights in a row), or the dozen other bizzaare decisions he has repeatedly made costing the Brewers various ballgames this year?

How about leaving your All-star closer rotting in the bullpen (again) while Turnblow walks in a run to a catcher batting .176 on 4 straight with two outs?

 

Do I win a prize? Can I manage one of the last games? I promise I won't do worse than Yost.

[danzig6767]

I sat there watching the 8th inning absolutely stunned at what was going on

 

Ned has some mind bending type of stupid things during this pennant race,but when he had a hitter plunked on purpose in the 8th inning of a VITAL game,even i didn't think he had that level of stupidity in him.Davey Lopes was a trainwreck of a manager and i doubt if he would have pulled a moronic stunt like that.

 

How does this happen?How?What possibly could have crossed Ned's mind to think retaliation was more important than doing the best to win a game in a pennant race?How can Melvin/Attanasio not be appalled by that showing of utter incompetence in pulling a bush league stunt with so few games left and a chance to get within a game?

[TooLiveBrew]

Do I win a prize? Can I manage one of the last games? I promise I won't do worse than Yost.

If only this were possible Blazer. I can only imagine some of the things you've heard on Yost, especially this year.

[naivin]

To say Yost blew the game by throwing at Pujols and putting him on base is completely ridiculous. Down by one run in the 8th inning, there is no chance in you know where that Derrik Turnbow, Seth McClung or any of the other pieces that make up the garbage collection we call a bullpen were going to pitch to Pujols. He was going to be standing on 1B no matter what (Much like Fielder when he got hit, unless of course they decided to pitch to Pujols, in which case we would have been lucky if he was only standing on 1B). That part of it is a ntotal on-issue. The more I thought about this, if seeing your star player get drilled fairly high, didn't wake that team up last night, perhaps Ned was hoping a little more action might. There may be better ways to get revenge, but it was pretty obvious watching the bottom half of that order hit last night, that wasn't going to happen. Pujols on first wasn't the problem. Pitchers inability to get out that high powered bottom half of the Cardinals line-up was.

 

I think they wilted last night as a team. The quartet of Hart, Jenkins, Hall, and Miller (not gonna be too rough on Miller as he has been forced into action. He is what he is), were completely useless. They had chances to put that one away early and failed miserably. Couple that with a pathetic bullpen and you get your result. There will of course be focus on the Pujols thing, but that is well down the list of reasons they lost - if its on the list at all.

 

Once again, the easy answer crowd will try to pin any loss on Yost, because then they can cling to this silly notion that if we would just replace hime, we'd be good. We lost because our key players (Fielder, Braun, Hart, Weeks) had rough nights we didn't score abunch of runs, and as is typically the case, there was nobody there to pick them up.

[RU Rah Rah]

So is there a record for ejections in a week? At the rate he's going, Ned has a shot at 5-6, easy.

 

Seems as though he's taking it out on everyone lately -- the fans, the umps, the Cardinals. Is there anyone else left for him to point a finger at?

[windiv07]

How about leaving your All-star closer rotting in the bullpen (again) while Turnblow walks in a run to a catcher batting .176 on 4 straight with two outs?

 

Do I win a prize? Can I manage one of the last games? I promise I won't do worse than Yost.

You win. You have one of the other dozen reasons nailed. That said, others are blaming Maddux & Sveum for this even though we all know Yost most likely laid out his plan before heading up the tunnel (since we all have seen him do exactly that with Turnbow time & again).

 

If it were up to me, Yost would be fined $10.00 & suspended (by the club, not the league) for the remainder of the year for the Pujols plunking incident. I'll voluneer to pay that fine if Mark Attanasio allows me to pick his replacement. I doubt this will happen because afterall, we are just stoopid fayunz. However, if it does, I'll be in touch...You take it through Sunday and I'll take the post season. It will take the intellect of a chimpanzee to get us out of this mess Ned has put us in.

[windiv07]

Pitchers inability to get out that high powered bottom half of the Cardinals line-up was.

Don't think for one second that when you plunk the offensive backbone of last year's World Champions (after a warning innings earlier) that it does not affect the size of the strike zone your pitchers must deal with after that.

[naivin]

Don't think for one second that when you plunk the offensive backbone of last year's World Champions (after a warning innings earlier) that it does not affect the size of the strike zone your pitchers must deal with after that.

Oh good grief...Did you see where those pitches were? It had nothing to do with the size of the strike zone, unless of course I missed some sort of rules change and strike zone now extends into the batters box. Our pitchers weren't getting squeezed, they weren't even close.

[mark brouhard is number on]

i'd say it was the wrong time to hit pujo;s by far, but give me a break the guy was probably going to get on base anyway. i'm glad ned stuck up for his players and hit him, maybe it'll send a message to the biggest dink in baseball, Tony LaRussa, that we don't lay down for anyone, and we're not afraid to fight if you purposely hit 2 of our guys on back to back nights. With one guy on base and two outs there should have been no rally like that. blame the loss on who is really at fault, Mr Head Case himself, derrick turnblow. hopefully that is the last we will ever see of him in a brewer uniform. I support all the players and coaches to a fault but this guy is to much of a joke for even me.

[endaround]

Ned sticking up for his players but putting the tying run on base!

 

Did Turnbow want to walk Stinnet? No, and likely that Maddux meeting right before hand did nothing to help calm him.

 

Yost did want to hit Pujols and put the tying run on.

 

If you can't see why the one act is much more of a problem, I don't know what to say.

[TauPentaRei]

I put this in the IGT, but I think it's important enough to place again where more can see it.

 

From today's St. Louis Post-Dispatch, on the IHBP:

"...As John Rooney said on the Cardinals' KTRS broadcast: "This is one of the dumbest things I've ever seen a manager do."..."

http://www.stltoday.com/blogs/sports-bernies-extra-points/2007/09/ned-yost-punkd/

 

It's refreshing to see exterior perspective... and that we aren't crazy.

 

EDIT: man, it's really recommended reading - the article BLASTS Yost.

 

"...Instead of worrying about his team's fate, Yost stroked his own ego and insisted on throwing the last rock at La Russa. And in doing so, Yost undermined his team's chances of winning a must-have game. It's incomprehensible, but Cubs manager Lou Piniella must appreciate how La Russa, his old boyhood chum, did such a psychological number on Yost..."

[MoneyballMan]

Unfortunately, this thread appears to be a waste of energy. Mark A. wants him back, all of the players want him back and now we're hearing how "the rest of the league regards him as a top 5 manager" (heard that on the pre-game show on WTMJ yesterday). He's coming back for 2008 and it wouldn't surprise me if they threw out the option for 2009 and just extended him through 2010 with a new deal. Like others have said, we're just stupid fans on "those dumb sports internet chat sites".

[windiv07]

Don't think for one second that when you plunk the offensive backbone of last year's World Champions (after a warning innings earlier) that it does not affect the size of the strike zone your pitchers must deal with after that.

Oh good grief...Did you see where those pitches were? It had nothing to do with the size of the strike zone, unless of course I missed some sort of rules change and strike zone now extends into the batters box. Our pitchers weren't getting squeezed, they weren't even close.

I accept your point as I was in the loge last night. Do you assert that in a contentious stretch between a manager and the umpires that (after being defied) the umpires would never massage the strike zone because of 'the rules'?

 

Do you deny that LaRussa understands gamesmanship and easily rubbed Ned's nose in it last night?

I would've had Parra (a lefty) ready and told Villy to do it the very next Pujols at-bat after the Fielder plunking. This would've shook up LaRussa's lineup card early in the game. But NO...Ned waits until we are behind and rolls the dice later with a shaky pen in a bad situation late in the game. If revenge is a dish better served cold, it will have to wait until next year now anyway. In the postgame interviews, Pujols said that it was funny how stupid plunking him was. He was right.

[Fatter than Joey]

maybe it'll send a message to the biggest dink in baseball, Tony LaRussa, that we don't lay down for anyone

 

I think the only message it sent to LaRussa was that if Yost is still managing next year, he is low-hanging fruit and easy wins.

[naivin]

It wasn't the tying run. The Brewers were behind.

 

What is it people don't understand about the fact that they were going to work around him anyway - much the way the Cardinals were going to do with Fileder when they drilled him? Unless of course some of you think it would be a good idea to have Seth McClung or Derrik Turnbow pitching to Pujols in a one run game in which he had already hit one out and had been on base every time up I think. They were never going to pitch to him. Pujols is not a guy that is going to get himself out, which is why McCLung was brought in to do the dirty work, given the situation, instead of messing around with the unintentional intentional walk.

[windiv07]

Who exactly is "the rest of the league"?

[sheethead]

I don't buy the argument that hitting Pujols was fine because he was going to get on base anyway. You attempt to get out of the inning in that situation, not send in your McClung goon to "get even" and then leave the situation to Turnblow to deal with. He put retaliation ahead of winning, and combined with Yost and Sveum's profanity laden tirades the last two days, the managing has been downright embarrassing. Pretty much the norm with this group however. I would blame the loss on Turnbow, but I can't because he was put in that situation by Mr. Dipstick Manager Ned Toast.

[windiv07]

It wasn't the tying run. The Brewers were behind.

 

What is it people don't understand about the fact that they were going to work around him anyway - much the way the Cardinals were going to do with Fileder when they drilled him? Unless of course some of you think it would be a good idea to have Seth McClung or Derrik Turnbow pitching to Pujols in a one run game in which he had already hit one out and had been on base every time up I think. They were never going to pitch to him. Pujols is not a guy that is going to get himself out, which is why McCLung was brought in to do the dirty work, given the situation, instead of messing around with the unintentional intentional walk.

I think we all know and clearly understand the rationale behind the plunking. This is why the majority here feel that to wait until the 8th inning in the situation you describe (as opposed to just doing it and getting it over with) was not only juvenile, but downright suicidal.

[sheethead]

"...Instead of worrying about his team's fate, Yost stroked his own ego and insisted on throwing the last rock at La Russa. And in doing so, Yost undermined his team's chances of winning a must-have game. It's incomprehensible, but Cubs manager Lou Piniella must appreciate how La Russa, his old boyhood chum, did such a psychological number on Yost..."

 

Doing a psychological number on Yost must be right up there with tying shoelaces as one of the easiest things to do.

[Fatter than Joey]

Who exactly is "the rest of the league"?

 

Managers who know they can school Yost, and don't want to see him replaced with a good manager, i.e. "The Glen Mason Effect"

 

What is it people don't understand about the fact that they were going to work around him anyway

 

It is not a fact -- You just don't IBB or HBP any player with no one on and the meat of the lineup coming up. Pujols as good as he is, is still more likely to make an out than reach base.

 

Unless of course some of you think it would be a good idea to have Seth McClung or Derrik Turnbow pitching to Pujols

 

A smart manager would have thought to bring in Cordero.

 

instead of messing around with the unintentional intentional walk.

 

Only an idiot manager would see a HBP as an alternative to a BB. No one gets ejected/suspended for a BB, you don't fire up the other team, you don't get squeezed by the umps, etc.

 

If Yost needs Seth McClung to hit Pujols for the Brewer players to feel "protected", that is just silly. I am sure to a player, they feel many times worse about the lost opportunity to gain ground on the Cubs than they feel good about Yost popping players for them.

[naivin]

I don't buy the argument that hitting Pujols was fine because he was going to get on base anyway. You attempt to get out of the inning in that situation, not send in your McClung goon to "get even" and then leave the situation to Turnblow to deal with. He put retaliation ahead of winning, and combined with Yost and Sveum's profanity laden tirades the last two days, the managing has been downright embarrassing. Pretty much the norm with this group however. I would blame the loss on Turnbow, but I can't because he was put in that situation by Mr. Dipstick Manager Ned Toast.

 

So help me understand...Your position is that you wanted Seth McClung pitching to Albert Pujols?

 

He did not put retaliation ahead of winning. The intent was to win, and retaltiation just happened to fit with the timing. Instead of working around Pujols or intentionally walking him, they put one in his ribs.

 

What position was Turnbow put in exactly, one where he is asked to go in and get 2 outs against future Hall of Famers, Ryan Ludwick, Skip Schumacher, and Kelly Stinett? I guess $2.5 million doesn't go as far as it used to if that is somehow considered an unreasonable request.

[mark brouhard is number on]

we're never going to win or help some of the people who think its all the managers fault for anything that happens during the game. so be it. however, there was no way we were going to pitch to pujols anyway, so why not send a message? there lineup is not very good, you would think we could get 2 outs, even with a guy on first. the problem is the bullpen. i know i can't convince people otherwise, but i know that's the problem. we can't depend on wise or turnbow anymore, and that's 2 of the main people in our pen for the first two thirds of the year. that hurts bad, and it puts other players who are A) not as good and B) not used to these situations in them. that is what is killing this team and what killed them last night. not Ned telling mcclung to hit a guy with one out and noone on base.

[naivin]

Only an idiot manager would see a HBP as an alternative to a BB. No one gets ejected/suspended for a BB, you don't fire up the other team, you don't get squeezed by the umps, etc.

Completely ridiculous. First off, in your world where the manager is to blame for everything, Yost getting ejected should be a good thing. That aside, how fired up were the Cardinals exactly that they were able to sit there with the bats on their shoulders while Brewer pitchers couldn't find the strike zone? Getting squeezed by the umps? Come on! Did you watch the game? Do you really think Turnbow was getting squeezed? Those pitches weren't close. Nobody was getting squeezed.

 

I understand the appeal of blaming the manager,because it provides an easy answer. Much easier than facing the reality that we need to completely revamp the bullpen if we want any chance of winning next year, or coming to grips with the fact that the bottom of our order has been completely useless.

[MJLiverock]

It wasn't the tying run. The Brewers were behind.

 

What is it people don't understand about the fact that they were going to work around him anyway - much the way the Cardinals were going to do with Fileder when they drilled him? Unless of course some of you think it would be a good idea to have Seth McClung or Derrik Turnbow pitching to Pujols in a one run game in which he had already hit one out and had been on base every time up I think. They were never going to pitch to him. Pujols is not a guy that is going to get himself out, which is why McCLung was brought in to do the dirty work, given the situation, instead of messing around with the unintentional intentional walk.

 

I agree 100% with this take. Pujols was most likely going to be walked anyway. The loss in this game is on the offense and Turnbow. The Brewers needed to score more than 3 runs in this game, especially given the way the Cardinals started. Turnbow has to be able to throw a strike. Putting the Cardinals best hitter on first base with 1 out did not hand the Cardinals 4 runs the inability to throw strikes hurt much more.