Ned Yost Yay or Nay thread: Hardball Times rips Yost (part 3)

[JJHardy7]

I don't know if this has been posted, but I wanted to see everyone's thoughts. In the beginning of the year Ned was saying and acting like he was calm and it's a long season. We got into August and he tried to keep that same attitude -- at least portraying it that way -- then he blew up. Did anyone else notice this? I'm guessing the pressure got to him, but maybe it's because he was acting like the 24-10 wasn't a big deal, etc. Thoughts?

[Fatter than Joey]

I felt like Ned was condescending to the fans all season long... I feel like the tone was the same, but the tune changed.

 

He started with "relax" when people starting questioning his competency early on in the year, followed by "we are in 1st place" and then moved to "put a couch in the dugout" once he pissed away the Brewers lead, and then when he finally carped himself under pressure he said things like "The math is on our side"

[brewfanks]

I personally wouldn't mind if the Brew takes a look at Torre if the Yankees fire him. Am I in the minority? Somebody please convince me that sticking with Yost is a better option. And yes, I do understand Torre probably wouldn't accept the job....

[endaround]

Torre would be paid more than any player on the Brewers not named Sheets. It isn't happening.

[Brian the Automator]

I personally wouldn't mind if the Brew takes a look at Torre if the Yankees fire him. Am I in the minority? Somebody please convince me that sticking with Yost is a better option. And yes, I do understand Torre probably wouldn't accept the job....

Would I take Torre over Yost? Probably. However, I really don't think he's that great of a manager, despite the Yankees' success. If I'm looking to replace Yost (which doesn't look like it's going to happen before 2008), I'd look in other directions first...

 

[Thurston Fluff]

as I said earlier the difference between Cordero and Aquino is only going to matter 5 to 10 percent of the time.

 

I'm sorry, I can't get on-board with this one in particular.

 

And in general, look at it this way - if you were playing russian roulette with hypothetical 100-chambered guns, and you were offered the choice between a gun that had 25 bullets in it, or 30? Heck, how about the choice between one and two? This is what grates the 'Nay' crowd. Just because a choice is only slightly better does not negate the advantage it provides.

While this is true it still doesn't account for the other things Ned does well that, IMO, more than make up for said 5% benefit. To take your example of russian roulette would it be better to have a 6 chambered gun with one bullet or a 15 chambered gun with two? Ned's strength wouldn't be to chose how many bullets to put in the gun. His would be the ability to convince the person to give him the 15 chamber gun. It doesn't get noticed once the gun is in play but the differnace is no less real. I'm not going to argue there are guys who may be as good at handling egos and getting the most out of his players and be better at game management. I would argue that there is no way to tell who those people are until they have had a chance to manage that particular team for a while. I don't think it's quite time yet to chance getting much worse for the small benefit of having someone slightly better overall.

Not when this team can do things that will help way more than any manager would. Like getting bullpen guys who can actually be counted on when called upon. If we have better players Ned's weakness will be even less of a problem.

 

 

To further exemplify how much easier it was to manage the two NL teams remaining lets look at how many good relievers they have vs Milwaukee and for fun I added the Cubs

 

ERA below 2 ERA below 3 ERA below 4

AZ - 0 6 2 1/2 Bob Wickman only part time in AZ

Rockies - 0 3 3

Cubs- 1 0 3

Milwaukee - 0 2 1/2 - Linebrink

 

 

 

 

I'd be willing to bet the Indians and Red Sox have similar numbers to AZ and CO vs. Milwaukee. In fact I'd be willing to bet there are very few winning teams with 2 1/2 relievers or less with an ERA below 4. No matter what choice he would have made unless he trotted Coco out there every game he didn't have much of a choice. Especially considering one of the two relievers with an ERA below 3 was a left handed specialist. Not someone you can use in a ton of circumstances. NO Ned's choices usually came down to Turnbow and his 4.63 ERA or everybody's whipping boy Spurling who actaully had a better ERA of 4.50 or maybe Aquino and his 4.50 ERA. Of course they did have Wise who was serviable for 1/2 the year and some others but I think you get the point. There were no viable alternatives.

[mark brouhard is number on]

our bullpen was not good most of the year and that is not Ned's fault. if anyone's fault it is Doug Melvins for not getting better relievers. look at any team that is left in the playoffs and most seem to have a fair number of either younger or home grown relievers on their teams, not retreads that are journeymen at best, and that is the problem. what was he supposed to do when 2 of the supposed better relievers on the team are head cases. wise being one, I mean come on he hit a guy in the head which would be awful, but to have it affect the rest of your year? and turnbow, no need to explain that one. i just can't understand why the brewers have to form their bullpen around retreads and journeymen every year. we have awesome prospects everywhere but there and we need to do something about it quick or it will continue to be our downfall, not Ned

[Ennder]

Only 1 time in 20 will it make a difference

 

When Yost makes these mistakes every other game that ends up to 4 games significantly changed a year. Melvin obviously isn't very happy with the way Yost managed this season given his end of season statement so hopefully if Yost doesn't learn what he is doing by mid season we'll go with someone else. Obviously the best case scenario is Yost learns how to manage the in late games.

[sheethead]

Its not like the bullpen was the worst in the league. It wasn't that horrible of a situation, it was just used poorly and that amplified the shortcomings. The defense cost this team way more games than the bullpen did.

 

Ned could have the best bullpen in the league (at which he did at one point), but he would still find a way to fudge it up. He would continue to use his 8th inning guy late in blowout games, or come back with his closer only when its a close situation.

 

I am very much looking forward to next year, but having Yost in the dugout will take a little bit away from my anticipation. Knowing he will still be calling the same shots, after not learning anything from the prior year and not reflecting on any of the numerous idiot decisions he made takes the luster out of 2008 for me.

[endaround]

For those who missed it, The Hardball Times had an article about Yost on Saturday:

 

Yost Infection

[Jay Zahn]

Its not like the bullpen was the worst in the league. It wasn't that horrible of a situation, it was just used poorly and that amplified the shortcomings. The defense cost this team way more games than the bullpen did.

 

Ned could have the best bullpen in the league (at which he did at one point), but he would still find a way to fudge it up. He would continue to use his 8th inning guy late in blowout games, or come back with his closer only when its a close situation.

 

I am very much looking forward to next year, but having Yost in the dugout will take a little bit away from my anticipation. Knowing he will still be calling the same shots, after not learning anything from the prior year and not reflecting on any of the numerous idiot decisions he made takes the luster out of 2008 for me.

The Brewers bullpen was in fact the worst in the league.

 

I made a comparison of how many runs were given up by each team in the 7th, 8th, and 9th inning compared to the MLB average. For example, if the league average for runs given up in the 7th inning were 5 runs and the Brewers gave up 5.5, they would get a -0.5 for the seventh inning. If they gave up 4.25, they would get a +0.75, and so on. Here's the National League for 2007:

 

 

Mets	2.33
Rockies	2.17
Cubs	1.68
Padres	1.67
Dodgers	1.42
Cardinals	0.82
Braves	0.5
Nationals	0.49
Giants	0.44
Diamondbacks	-0.06
Astros	-0.3
Pirates	-1.04
Marlins	-1.93
Phillies	-2.2
Reds	-3.04
Brewers	-3.14

The Reds are really the only comparable team, and they play in a hitters' park (I didn't adjust for parks.) Miller Park is neutral. Look at the stats. No manager is going to be able to make moves to mask that sort of junk. If you think someone could actually get Turnbow, Wise, et al to pitch better, then that's something else.

[Fatter than Joey]

The Brewers bullpen was in fact the worst in the league.

 

I don't think there is anything factual about this.

 

I could certainly claim with just as much legitimacy that the Brewers BP was managed the worst in the NL. When Ned left guys like Tbow in too long, and brought in his lowest relievers in the highest leverage situations, more runs were scored.

[logan82]

Only 1 time in 20 will it make a difference

 

When Yost makes these mistakes every other game that ends up to 4 games significantly changed a year. Melvin obviously isn't very happy with the way Yost managed this season given his end of season statement so hopefully if Yost doesn't learn what he is doing by mid season we'll go with someone else. Obviously the best case scenario is Yost learns how to manage the in late games.

When you say every other game you are talking about more games than we lost. You are saying he made mistakes in every game we lost. He didn't make the wrong choice in pinch hitters that often. This is just another example of overestimating Yost's impact.

[Oldcity]

Sure the bullpen needs work, but to me the bullpen's struggles were caused by two things more than the actual relief pitchers themselves. One was Yost burning out Turnbow and Wise by July, the other was starters not going deep into games as much as they needed to (thank you, Claudio Vargas).

[Thurston Fluff]

No offense End but that rant was form someone with no more insite than the rest of us. A lot of that was redifeing things after the fact to fit the theory and making inferences without backing it up with anything more than that theory. For example if Villy was so over used and burned out how did he rebound in September? Since he did rebound why wasn't Ned given credit for that like he was for his poor August? It could just as easily be argued that Ned was a genious in his use of Villy. Here he had a guy who ate up important innings early in the year. Innings that needed to be taken by someone due to the lack of consitant starters. Then when his arm was tired and he wasn't effective they use an option at the perfect time to send him down to regroup and get ready for starting in the strecth run. It seems to me since he did rebound in September that maybe Ned didn't wear him down. Maybe Villy just lost his control or had a bad month. Or maybe Ned figured all along that they could send him down to recuperate if they tired him later in the year.

 

I certainly don't think that is the case but neither do I believe all the assertions without basis made from that particular person. Noone not privey to long, extended, conversations about the club with Ned really knows what contingency plans Ned had. I'd suspect there was a lot more that went into his approach than that person suggested. I'd also suspect that Doug Melvin and Mark A. were fully aware of his intended approach and felt it was backed by some sort of reasonig they, at the least, did not disagree with. All that person did was take snippents of information he could find and filled the holes with his own ideas of what went on. Nothing wrong with that from a fans perspective. I do it all the time. We all do. But we should be aware of the potential faults in logic when all the information isn't avaliable.

[Thurston Fluff]

I could certainly claim with just as much legitimacy that the Brewers BP was managed the worst in the NL. When Ned left guys like Tbow in too long, and brought in his lowest relievers in the highest leverage situations, more runs were scored.

 

Turnbow was left in too long anytime he walked the first batter. Does that mean Ned should have another pitcehr warmed up everytime he pitched just in case? That would't have taken a toll on an already overtaxed bullpen. The point is there was no such thing as lowest relievers. Not a single guy beyond CoCo, Linebrink and Shouse had an ERA under 4. None under 2. One of them was a 38 year old lefty specialist who wouldn't have had that low an ERA if Ned had used him more. So kudo's to Ned to get so much out of a leftover from the Texas roster a year ago. A guy they thought so little of they gave him away for the proverbial bag of balls.

 

The other guy came to us in a trade already overused as well. Then we had guys like Spurling who believe it or not had a better ERA than Turnbow. But of course maybe we should have used Turnbow in some of those situations. Or gone to one of our other studs in tight games...like...well...Wise with his 84 MPH fastball and changeup that couldn't get anybody out after hitting a guy...how about...McCLung because when he hits the side of a barn it does vibrate the boards...Aquino need I go one with him?...Linbrink, just how much more could he have been used since he came to use overused already. Not that he was overly effective in the higher leverage situations with the Brewers to begin with. Give me actual names that really were his high leverage pitchers that succeeded in those situations consistantly. You can't because there are none.

[mikerollins]

AJAY wrote:

---

but it just seems comical to let Leyva go but somehow Yost gets to stay despite all his severe mismanagement.

You state that as though it's a fact, when it's completely an opinion. Unless you've been in the clubhouse, on the field, or in the dugout, you have no idea what went on this year. There are so many different scenerios that may have happened that you don't know anything about. I have no idea why Leyva was let go, but if he wasn't on the same page as his boss. Then that's his bad. One thing about sports...there is a Head Coach (or in baseball a manager). They control everything. What they do and say is all that matters. Either you are with him or you are setting yourself up to be let go. You don't have to agree with it, but you can't talk about not agreeing. If you do, you have every right to be let go.

 

Ned yost took over one of the worst franchises in sports history, coming off a 56-106 season.

He led a team to a record of 68-94 (a 12 game improvement) with an opening day starting lineup of:

Alex Sanchez

Eric Young

Richie Sexson

John Vander Wal

Jeffery Hammonds

Wes Helms

Eddie Perez

Royce Clayton

In his 2nd season with comprable talent he again lost 94 games (67-94 due to a rainout)

In his 3rd season with more young talent at the major league level he gave the franchise their non-losing season since 1992 when they were 81-81

In his 4th season, he was on his way to a winning season when he lost 2/5 of his starting rotation to injury with the injuries to Ben Sheets, Tomo Ohka, and replaced them with Dana Eveland, Zach Jackson, Jorge De La Rosa, Rick Helling, and Ben Hendrickson. In addition to that he lost his young middle infield (JJ Hardy-ankle and Rickie Weeks-wrist) for the season. He slipped from 81 wins to 75 wins, but without a doubt was plagued by injuries.

That brings us to his 5th season. He finally had healthy talent to work with it, despite it being young talent. He led the team to a September pennant race and finished the season with a winning record for the first time in 15 years.

 

Sure they fell short of the playoffs, but it wasn't becasue of Ned Yost. It was because of Sheets getting hurt, Capuano struggling much of the year, and a rotation unable to work into the 7th inning often enough forcing him to overuse the only 3 reliable options in a average bullpen. By having to use Wise/Villy (until he went into the rotation), Turnbow, and Cordero so often throughout the year, they wore down. This is not Ned Yost's fault. He needs to get pitchers that are able to work deeper into games. That should happen this year. Suppan has always been durable. YO and Villy should be able to work longer into games now that they are older. Sheets will come back healthy.

 

I completely disagree that he "mismanaged" the bullpen. There are no right or wrong decisions when it comes to the bullpen. The pitchers haev to make the pitches and more often than not...it didn't matter who he went to. They didn't make pitches. The biggest area to work on this off-season is the bullpen. Getting better arms will defintely make Ned Yost look smarter as he continues to improve on the mindset of the franchise that was coming off a 56-win season when he took over and has seen that number increase by 27 games in just 5 years.

 

Ned Yost is the man to lead this franchise to the post season. If Nick Levya didn't see it Neds way. Good riddence.

[twobrewers]

Ned Yost is the man to lead this franchise to the post season. If Nick Levya didn't see it Neds way. Good riddence.

Well Mike is fired up!

 

I am not a big Ned supporter - but actually agree with this statement. IF, and that is a big IF, Nick has some issues with Ned's management that would be plenty of reason for letting him go.

 

Whether Ned is the right manager for the job or not doesn't matter - at the very least everyone does need to be on the same wavelength. If you have one coach undermining you, you could lose the whole team. Maybe Nick was trying to backdoor Ned with the players to set himself up as a potential replacement?

[splitterpfj]

Hardball Times rips into Yost. BTW, I wonder if the poster he refers to is a bf.netter?

 

Hardball Times

 

This guy really goes after Ned, there's some powerful criticism in here. I see endaround had already posted that link, if you haven't read the story, you should, no matter which side of the Yost debate you're on, there's plenty to talk about in that piece.

[1992casey]

There's so much quotable stuff in that article that all I can say is read it. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Oldcity]

Yeah I believe endaround posted that the other day. Good stuff.

[davego]

Wow. Well written. Feels like living it all over again.

[sheethead]

The Reds are really the only comparable team, and they play in a hitters' park (I didn't adjust for parks.) Miller Park is neutral. Look at the stats. No manager is going to be able to make moves to mask that sort of junk. If you think someone could actually get Turnbow, Wise, et al to pitch better, then that's something else.

 

That's nice but are those stats taking unearned runs into account? I would bet no.

 

Whether Ned is the right manager for the job or not doesn't matter - at the very least everyone does need to be on the same wavelength. If you have one coach undermining you, you could lose the whole team. Maybe Nick was trying to backdoor Ned with the players to set himself up as a potential replacement?

 

Is this because Ned can't stand to be around anyone but a "Yes" man? See: Milwaukee media and beat reporters. Maybe some contrast would do Ned some good. Maybe, and I'm saying maybe, Levya thinks like a lot of us and believes he could manage better than Yost. I would bet yes, he could.

[sheethead]

I am pretty sure Levya was fired because he didn't join in with Ned and Dale for the "f-bomb" launching at LaRussa.

 

Ned 'n Dale gonna run this here team the way they wants too, and there aint nobody stopping them now.

 

I can't befreakinglieve Ned 'n Dale are the Brewers dugout commanders for next year. I am still in disbelief. To think these two ********** could actually take a team to the playoffs is beyond comprehension. Now that I posted that, I will be watching my back for Dale and his long shadow.

[Katuluu]

To think these two ********** could actually take a team to the playoffs is beyond comprehension.

That is completely unacceptable language for this forum. Consider yourself warned.