Ned Yost Yay or Nay thread: Hardball Times rips Yost (part 3)

[1992casey]

For those who wish to register a vote, there's now a poll in the lead post of this thread.

[Hart Of Milwaukee]

I honestly feel Ned's only problem with the pitching staff is when he gave someone in that bullpen an opportunity to step up they failed him. Look at Bud Black last night for the padres he went with 3-4 different pitchers in a tie game before he went to Hoffman. No one once questioned him after the game about why he didn't summon the all time saves leaders earlier why? they produced! Matt Wise, Derrick Turnbow, and Greg Aquino chocked in pressure situations for the team. Ned got way too much credit when this team was 24-10 and he's getting way too much blame now that they missed out on the playoffs. Ned Yost is a good manager and unless we really fall back next year he should be our manager for quite some time!

[endaround]

Black brought Heath Bell in in a tie game on the road. Yost would have used Spurling.

[logan82]

So Black has a better and deeper pen.

[Hart Of Milwaukee]

So Black has a better and deeper pen.

 

Exactly! Unless you wanted to throw Cordero and Linebrink a crazy amount this season yost had no choice to throw Turnbow when he was struggling, Wise after he hit Lopez, or Spurling in any pressure situation. However, I will say the two times he used Aquino in the 9th were dumb, but not worth his job!

[Blazer25]

Melvin specifically praised Yost for his patience in the organization's approach in 2005 with shortstop J.J. Hardy, who was batting well below .200 in July of that season, and in 2006 with second baseman Rickie Weeks, whose defensive troubles were evident. Melvin also credited Yost for being on board with the December 2005 trade that sent steady first baseman Lyle Overbay to Toronto, opening the position for a then unproven Prince Fielder.

From McCalvy's comments.

 

This is praise worthy? This is why Ned is still our manager?

 

Because he was patient with 2 of our future conerstones in years where we didn't have a shot to win anything?

 

Because he was ok with trading away Lyle Overbay so a potential league MVP could start his career?

 

Wow! Talk about setting the bar low.

 

It's like DM is rewarding Ned for being the manager of the crappy Brewers with a chance to ruin a team that has a chance of winning next year.

 

"Ned you were a good soldier when we were 67-94. We don't really think you're the best man for the job but we're going to make it up to you by letting you manage 1 more year to prove to everyone that you unequivocally suck."

Did someone let Wendy back in the building?

 

I wish that was all it took to keep my job.

[Postseason2006]

So Black has a better and deeper pen.

 

Exactly why Melvin should've been canned. This is how he was in Texas too. He is terrible at assembling pitching and has no clue.

[tigerbrew]

Listening to Melvin, Yost's biggest strength is developing young players. If that's so, Yost is more suited and should be managing in the Minors instead. Winning and postseason qualification in the Majors is essential for this organisation, the manager must have right abilities to deliver on the postseason goal, or next year will end up being another disappointing season again. Yost's track record does not indicate that he has the right abilities to deliver on the postseason goal, he should not be back for 2008.

[logan82]

Actually recent history has shown no advantage to being an experienced manager as far as post season success is concerned.

[joeyhepatitis]

So Black has a better and deeper pen.

Exactly! Unless you wanted to throw Cordero and Linebrink a crazy amount this season yost had no choice to throw Turnbow when he was struggling, Wise after he hit Lopez, or Spurling in any pressure situation. However, I will say the two times he used Aquino in the 9th were dumb, but not worth his job!

I went over all of this 2 pages ago -

I'm pretty sure most San Diego fans realize that Bell' date=' Brocail, and, well, most everyone else in the bullpen has better stuff than Hoffman at this point in his career. The Padres are handcuffed to Hoffman in the closer role because I don't think they have the guts to bench the all-time saves leader, but they benefit from the situation, as well as teams like the Indians and the Cubs, where their best relievers are middle-relief guys who can go multiple innings and are available in the highest leverage situations regardless of the inning.[/quote']Bell is the only Padres reliever that has put up better numbers than Hoffman this season (Thatcher doesn't really count since he was there for only 2 months). Hoffman may not have the best stuff in the Padres pen, but the production is still there. Most teams would be happy to be handcuffed with Hoffman as their closer.

I don't know what point you're refuting here besides that I might be too harsh on Hoffman. Bell, Brocail, and Meredith are a solid core of relief pitchers and Thatcher has been great for them in those 2 months. I don't think that Yost using the same strategy with his bullpen as the Padres used should validate Yost. The decision to use Spurling in a tied game on the road in the 10th is completely different than using Bell in the same situation. You couldn't expect the Brewers bullpen to be consistently successful in deep, extra-inning games, and Yost's refusal to bring in the most reliable reliever in non-save situations demonstrates a fundamental flaw in handling a shallow bullpen.

 

I didn't mean to make it sound like Hoffman has been horrible this year. I just didn't like it when that other guy was like, "See what the Padres did! If it works for them then that's the correct strategy for Yost to use with the Brewers! You guys are so wrong to criticize him!" I think that would validate the criticism, right?

 

And when you bring up that we'd only be satisfied if Yost would overthrow Cordero is ridiculous considering he the plan was to bring him into the game eventually. Use him less in 2 or 3 run leads in the 9th, use him more in tied and 1 run games in the 8th when the heart of the order is up or the previous reliever has failed in doing his job. Or just try and do something besides the turnstile of AAA relievers in high leverage situations.

A good example of a manager using a different bullpen strategy effectively is Melvin with the Diamondbacks. He managed to the talent rather than forcing the talent to fit into the accepted and basic MLB strategy.

 

[1992casey]

(Bob Melvin) managed to the talent rather than forcing the talent to fit into the accepted and basic MLB strategy.

Forcing the talent to fit the strategy instead of managing to the talent extends well beyond the bullpen. All those steal attempts from Brady Clark a year ago is usually the first example to pop into my mind.

[logan82]

joeyhepatitis wrote:

A good example of a manager using a different bullpen strategy effectively is Melvin with the Diamondbacks. He managed to the talent rather than forcing the talent to fit into the accepted and basic MLB strategy.

Again you are talking about a guy with a much better bulpen. He also only used his closer in a nonsave situation once. On 7/8/07 he used his closer in the bottom of an extra innings game on the road. His closer only pitched more than an inning on one occasion. That was on 8/1/07 when Valverde blew a save and was left in for the next inning. To me this does not point to pattern of strategy much different than Yost's.

[SoCalBrewfan]

Adding to this the comments from Melvin via Tom H in JS:

 

"There are areas Ned needs to improve at. He knows that. I had dinner with him (Tuesday night) and Ned will admit to a number of places where he made mistakes with his management of the bullpen.

 

"This is the first legitimate year we contended to the point where we really had a shot. So Ned is experiencing this for the first time, too. You can get better. If he doesn't, sometimes you suffer the consequences."

 

That is consistent with the 'short leash' referred to above. It is also a public statement that Ned admits that he made mistakes with the pen. If Ned and his boss can agree to that, will the brewerfans?

[DougJones43]

To me this does not point to pattern of strategy much different than Yost's.

 

That's his whole point, which you obviously seem to be missing. What sense does it make for Ned Yost use the same exact strategy if his personnel isn't the same? Pointing out that he's using the same strategy when he doesn't have the middle relief talent to pull it off doesn't validate Yost in any way. In fact, many people here are realizing it's more evidence that he's unable to manage outside of his little "box." If everything didn't go perfectly according to plan (get a lead, Turnbow pitches a scoreless 8th, Cordero gets the save in the 9th) the man was completely at a loss for good alternative ideas.

[logan82]

He said that Melvin was using a different strategy.

[DougJones43]

He said that Melvin was using a different strategy.

Yeah, but you pointed out that their (D-Backs) bullpen, as a whole, was better than the Brewer bullpen. Same as with San Diego. Then you pointed out that Ned is doing things the same as these two teams, and I'm saying he shouldn't be.

 

 

edit: I see now that you were pointing out that Bob Melvin isn't doing anything different, which is contrary to what the previous poster said. That point is pretty much moot since he's working under a different set of circumstances than both Yost and Black, but I understand what you were trying to say. Still, my point remains unchanged.

[DougJones43]

"There are areas Ned needs to improve at. He knows that. I had dinner with him (Tuesday night) and Ned will admit to a number of places where he made mistakes with his management of the bullpen.

 

"This is the first legitimate year we contended to the point where we really had a shot. So Ned is experiencing this for the first time, too. You can get better. If he doesn't, sometimes you suffer the consequences."

If Ned is actually open to re-thinking some of his strategy, I'd be inclined to be less unhappy with keeping him. Maybe Doug Melvin is going to see to it that it isn't necessarily a voluntary shift in strategy. Even so, I would still have some major questions if he actually will try to do this, and if so, will he be able to effectively pull it off. I heard a lot of yammering in the off-season about how he was reading up on SABRmetric philosophy and and was ready to make more stat-based decisions. I saw very little evidence of that this year, so I'll believe it when I see it.

[logan82]

Right, and you know that I have never said that Yost was using Cordero correctly. I think that Yost needs to spend the offseason convincing Cordero that his greatest value to the team is as a middle reliever/stopper and not as the closer.

 

Edit: That is provided we can resign Cordero.

[DougJones43]

Right, and you know that I have never said that Yost was using Cordero correctly. I think that Yost needs to spend the offseason convincing Cordero that his greatest value to the team is as a middle reliever/stopper and not as the closer.

I agree. And I certainly don't mind Cordero being used in "save situations" a good portion of the time. Often times, those are very important moments in the game. I just don't want our manager to be completely unwilling to even consider ever using him in the 7th or 8th if the game situation calls for it. And it probably isn't necessary to use your best reliever every time you have a 3-run lead in the 9th.

[logan82]

I agree. And I certainly don't mind Cordero being used in "save situations" a good portion of the time. Often times, those are very important moments in the game. I just don't want our manager to be completely unwilling to even consider ever using him in the 7th or 8th if the game situation calls for it. And it probably isn't necessary to use your best reliever every time you have a 3-run lead in the 9th.

 

Me either, but I have found no evidence that points to a manager who does that. The only times I have seen it is in cases where there is an established closer who has been with the team and a new guy comes in like Marmol with the Cubs or the situation in San Diego with Hoffman. We might have been better off this year if Turnbow had held onto the closer's job last year and we had Cordero as a setup guy.

[DougJones43]

From ESPN: Brewers to bring Yost back, but for how long?

Boy, this stuff isn't going to be a distraction at all heading into next year. I think this indecisive stuff is pretty much the last direction I wanted this to go. My first choice would have been to have Yost fired after the 2006 season. My second choice would be for him to be fired tomorrow. However (and this might surprise some people), I'd rather have him be guaranteed the managerial spot for all of next year then fool around with this nonsense.

I think firing Ned next May would be the last thing this franchise needs. Some guy (maybe Dale Sveum http://static.yuku.com//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/sick.gif ) is potentially going to be thrust into the managerial role next year during the middle of the season? I think this is just plain stupid. Between the team Melvin built around our young superstars this year, to this, I'm beginning to lose some faith in the moustached messiah.

[DougJones43]

Me either, but I have found no evidence that points to a manager who does that.

I'd scour all ranks of baseball to find somebody who's open to these different philosophies, if that's what it took. There are guys out there, the game is just still too full of old-school knuckleheads that drool over ex-Major League players, no matter what their brain capacity. That will change soon enough, I think. I'd rather my team be ahead of the curve than behind it.

[logan82]

I think Oakland might, but that is more of a GM mandated thing I believe. My brother and I were going to look at closer useage around the league, but I don't think either of us has the time.

[DougJones43]

I think Oakland might, but that is more of a GM mandated thing I believe.

 

Yep. That, among other things has pretty much earned Billy Beane some big time hatred from many of his peers, who feel his fancy-pants approach to the game is sacrilegious. Like I said, I think these stubborn, old ways of thinking will eventually be phased out of the game. Baseball has never really been known to be quick to change, so it will take more time before the "nerds" become more relevant. http://static.yuku.com//domainskins/bypass/img/smileys/smile.gif

[logan82]

I think the closer issue also has a lot to do with money. The best relievers want to be the closer because they will get saves and therefore recognition and money.