Ned Yost Yay or Nay thread: Hardball Times rips Yost (part 3)

[giffted1]

I'm pretty sure most San Diego fans realize that Bell, Brocail, and, well, most everyone else in the bullpen has better stuff than Hoffman at this point in his career. The Padres are handcuffed to Hoffman in the closer role because I don't think they have the guts to bench the all-time saves leader, but they benefit from the situation, as well as teams like the Indians and the Cubs, where their best relievers are middle-relief guys who can go multiple innings and are available in the highest leverage situations regardless of the inning.

Bell is the only Padres reliever that has put up better numbers than Hoffman this season (Thatcher doesn't really count since he was there for only 2 months). Hoffman may not have the best stuff in the Padres pen, but the production is still there. Most teams would be happy to be handcuffed with Hoffman as their closer.

[tigerbrew]

Why hasn't he been fired yet? Why? Why? Why?

Just wondering, could it be that Mark and Doug do not want to payoff Ned's final year so they decide not to fire him to save some money? If that's so, I think that's terrible.

That 'Ned on a short leash' statement by Melvin sounds rather hollow, like a PR stint to appease the skeptical fans and get them buying next season tickets.

Yost will be back' date=' but DM will keep him on a "short leash" for next year. Sounds like if we don't come out of the gates exploding he's done.[/i']

 

What is the point of this? (I don't doubt this is a likely scenario)

 

So basically when the Brewers go on some sort of losing streak Ned will get fired? I am all for Ned getting canned, but what advantage is there to doing it mid-season and having some sort of interim manager.

 

We are setting up a scenario where Ned goes to spring training sets up his team, the team starts the year 5-10 and Ned gets fired, and Dale Sveum is our interim manager for 2008?

 

If you thought there was a good chance your manager would not last the AS Break, why not hire a new manager in the offseason and let them setup and get to know the team in ST?

Totally agree with FTJ, the 'short leash' thing is a bad idea, getting a new manager in the offseason is the better way. I think this may end up being Melvin's excuse to keep Yost for the entire 2008 season even if the team does below expectations again.

[Jay Zahn]

Nay.

 

Unless they hire someone specifically to manage the bullpen.

 

"Players love playing for Ned." I've only heard that about hitters on the team.

 

I wonder about the pitchers, especially the guys in the bullpen who all set career highs for appearances and as a result burnt out during the stretch.

 

I love how Hardicourt blames it on Turnbow, as if he as any choice of being overworked when Ned brings him out there 80 or so times this year.

 

Baldkin and others who claim Turnbow was overworked - he wasn't. Look at the stats.

 

Turnbow pitched in 77 games. That's good for 13th place in number of games by a pitcher. Turnbow had the most on the Brewers, and there are only 16 teams in the NL, it isn't particularly notable.

 

The Padres, noted for their great bullpen, had two pitchers who pitched more games and innings than Turnbow - Heath Bell, who was great, and also Cla Meredith.

 

Turnbow pitched a normal workload for a setup man. He just wasn't as good or as consistent as some others.

[joeyhepatitis]

I'm pretty sure most San Diego fans realize that Bell, Brocail, and, well, most everyone else in the bullpen has better stuff than Hoffman at this point in his career. The Padres are handcuffed to Hoffman in the closer role because I don't think they have the guts to bench the all-time saves leader, but they benefit from the situation, as well as teams like the Indians and the Cubs, where their best relievers are middle-relief guys who can go multiple innings and are available in the highest leverage situations regardless of the inning.

Bell is the only Padres reliever that has put up better numbers than Hoffman this season (Thatcher doesn't really count since he was there for only 2 months). Hoffman may not have the best stuff in the Padres pen, but the production is still there. Most teams would be happy to be handcuffed with Hoffman as their closer.

I don't know what point you're refuting here besides that I might be too harsh on Hoffman. Bell, Brocail, and Meredith are a solid core of relief pitchers and Thatcher has been great for them in those 2 months. I don't think that Yost using the same strategy with his bullpen as the Padres used should validate Yost. The decision to use Spurling in a tied game on the road in the 10th is completely different than using Bell in the same situation. You couldn't expect the Brewers bullpen to be consistently successful in deep, extra-inning games, and Yost's refusal to bring in the most reliable reliever in non-save situations demonstrates a fundamental flaw in handling a shallow bullpen.

 

I didn't mean to make it sound like Hoffman has been horrible this year. I just didn't like it when that other guy was like, "See what the Padres did! If it works for them then that's the correct strategy for Yost to use with the Brewers! You guys are so wrong to criticize him!" I think that would validate the criticism, right?

 

[1992casey]

That 'Ned on a short leash' statement by Melvin sounds rather hollow, like a PR stint to appease the skeptical fans and get them buying next season tickets.

Woah! Melvin didn't say that; Drew Olson speculated it. Or am I missing something?

 

[Baldkin]

Nay.

 

Unless they hire someone specifically to manage the bullpen.

 

"Players love playing for Ned." I've only heard that about hitters on the team.

 

I wonder about the pitchers, especially the guys in the bullpen who all set career highs for appearances and as a result burnt out during the stretch.

 

I love how Hardicourt blames it on Turnbow, as if he as any choice of being overworked when Ned brings him out there 80 or so times this year.

Baldkin and others who claim Turnbow was overworked - he wasn't. Look at the stats.

 

Turnbow pitched in 77 games. That's good for 13th place in number of games by a pitcher. Turnbow had the most on the Brewers, and there are only 16 teams in the NL, it isn't particularly notable.

 

The Padres, noted for their great bullpen, had two pitchers who pitched more games and innings than Turnbow - Heath Bell, who was great, and also Cla Meredith.

 

Turnbow pitched a normal workload for a setup man. He just wasn't as good or as consistent as some others.

he pitched 42 games before the all star break, only 35 afterwards.

His stats over previous years have shown he's terrible when he pitches back to back days, but he was still thrown out there to do that time and time again, and it failed.

 

When the manager puts the pitcher in a position where he is less likely to succeed, instead of managing the bullpen to get the most success out of who he has there and their individual skills and talents, that's where the problem comes in.

 

That's why I vote Nay.

 

 

 

 

 

[M Skjellyfetti]

Woah! Melvin didn't say that; Drew Olson speculated it. Or am I missing something?

 

I don't think you're missing anything. I think the short leash thing is getting run away with when it has been nothing but random speculation from a sportswriter (to the best of my knowledge). I wouldn't really give much credence to the short leash stuff.

 

From post 1143, the first mention of "short leash":

We at Saturday Scorecard believe that Yost will return in '08, but will be on a very short leash. If the team doesn't play well in the first half, he could be replaced.

-Drew Olsen

[rickh150]

These issues frustrated me this season:
1. Bullpen mismanagement- At the end of the season I'll give him a break because whoever he through in there was lousy. Yet, there were times when there was a hot pitcher or two in the pen- Villanueva, Shouse, Wise(early in season)- that he did not go to and went to other question marks. Aquino was put in a terrible position in April and cost us big games. Needless to say not putting in Cordero in the 8th in a few games really cost us. How about that 6-2 game against Philly when he let Turnbow in forever, not going to Cordero because there was just one out in the 8th and not two. Please. I could go on here for a while.

2. Starters left in too long- Some pitchers had enough, and they would be trotted back out to pitch another inning. Suppan/Bush would get shelled in the 6th and be asked to go out in the 7th. Many times this backfired. Yet, at the end of the season, I understand the dillema for Yost, being that the bullpen was terrible

3. Too many different line-ups
4. Not knowing when to bunt
5. Yost lack of taking any responsibility for the season- You and your team collapsed terribly. 1st three months= +14 Last three months=-10. Don't tell us how much was accomplished...not yet anyways. I'd prefer it if he would be honest and say how disappointed he was that they couldn't get to the playoffs and that they'll try to do it next year instead of saying how much a 83 win team accomplished. I'm not saying I didn't enjoy the season and the players always played hard, it seemed. Yet, take some blame Yost. Minus 10 in the last 3 months hurts

[Bucky Rules]

His stats over previous years have shown he's terrible when he pitches back to back days, but he was still thrown out there to do that time and time again, and it failed.

So, we can't pitch Turnbow on back to back days. We can't pitch Wise on back to back days. We don't want guys like Aquino, Spurling, etc. put into high leverage situations. What's the alternative? Pitch Cordero every night until his arm falls off?

[MoneyballMan]

I'm glad someone clarified that "short leash" came from Drew Olsen and not DM. Regardless of which side of the argument you're on, I wouldn't put too much credence in a sportswriter's opinion. It's not much better than what any of us may speculate. I'd be MUCH more concerned if those were DM's actual words. It just doesn't sound like him at all. If he in any way doesn't believe Yost is up to the task, he'd fire him. Even if he considered Yost to be on a short leash in his own mind, he certainly wouldn't make those thoughts public.

[naivin]

These issues frustrated me this season:

1. Bullpen mismanagement- At the end of the season I'll give him a break because whoever he through in there was lousy. Yet, there were times when there was a hot pitcher or two in the pen- Villanueva, Shouse, Wise(early in season)- that he did not go to and went to other question marks. Aquino was put in a terrible position in April and cost us big games. Needless to say not putting in Cordero in the 8th in a few games really cost us. How about that 6-2 game against Philly when he let Turnbow in forever, not going to Cordero because there was just one out in the 8th and not two. Please. I could go on here for a while.

 

2. Starters left in too long- Some pitchers had enough, and they would be trotted back out to pitch another inning. Suppan/Bush would get shelled in the 6th and be asked to go out in the 7th. Many times this backfired. Yet, at the end of the season, I understand the dillema for Yost, being that the bullpen was terrible

 

 

 

Well which is it?

 

He left guy in too long, or took them out too soon?

 

He gets a pass for the bullpen being bad at the end of the year...Did those guys forget how to pitch? The rotation obviously did him no favors in the beginning of the year, but using your logic, one could perhaps say that he did a good job managing the bullpen and hanging on as long as they did, while the rotation was consistently going 5 innings. Didn't go to the hot hand when he could have? To steal a quote from Bucky Rules...

 

So, we can't pitch Turnbow on back to back days. We can't pitch Wise on back to back days. We don't want guys like Aquino, Spurling, etc. put into high leverage situations. What's the alternative? Pitch Cordero every night until his arm falls off?

 

That seem sto be the position of those who claim bullpen mismanagement. Of course when he overuses Cordero, that too will be bullpen mismangement, so Yost is doomed either way. When you have a bullpen full of unreliable guys, you are going to get the results we saw.

[SeriesFinale]

Ned's quote in the J-S season review today cracked me up:

 

"I had four or five different goals in mind. Breaking the attendance record was one of them. Playing meaningful games deep into September was another. And playing winning baseball for the first time in 15 years. That's a huge hurdle to get over. We were hoping to do it all in one year but we missed it by two games."

 

Really? Breaking the attendance record was one of his goals? Has this been stated previously? Is that even in his control?

 

I hate to be cynical, and I'm slightly pro-Ned staying, but it's almost like he's adding this stuff on now so he can point to an "accomplished goal" in order to save his job (which I don't believe is in true danger right now).

[naivin]

Ned's quote in the J-S season review today cracked me up:

 

"I had four or five different goals in mind. Breaking the attendance record was one of them. Playing meaningful games deep into September was another. And playing winning baseball for the first time in 15 years. That's a huge hurdle to get over. We were hoping to do it all in one year but we missed it by two games."

 

Really? Breaking the attendance record was one of his goals? Has this been stated previously? Is that even in his control?

 

I hate to be cynical, and I'm slightly pro-Ned staying, but it's almost like he's adding this stuff on now so he can point to an "accomplished goal" in order to save his job (which I don't believe is in true danger right now).

 

Although, if you think about it, perhaps it was...if greater attendance = higher payroll = better players, I'd say its possible. I find it extremely eay to believe that was an organmizational goal, and thus it makes sense that Ned was at the very least aware of it, and perhaps even somewhat motivated by it.

[bklynbrewcrew]

Give me a break. No manager starts a season with a goal of breaking attendance records. This is just Ned's way of saying to the owner "look we had record attendance and I was a part of that" and you should keep me around. This guy is such a clown that its absolutely ridiculous that he might actually keep his job. Besides with all his comments about the fans he should prefer an empty ballpark with nobody watching the games so he isnt second guessed.

[Jay Zahn]

Nay.

 

Unless they hire someone specifically to manage the bullpen.

 

"Players love playing for Ned." I've only heard that about hitters on the team.

 

I wonder about the pitchers, especially the guys in the bullpen who all set career highs for appearances and as a result burnt out during the stretch.

 

I love how Hardicourt blames it on Turnbow, as if he as any choice of being overworked when Ned brings him out there 80 or so times this year.

Baldkin and others who claim Turnbow was overworked - he wasn't. Look at the stats.

 

Turnbow pitched in 77 games. That's good for 13th place in number of games by a pitcher. Turnbow had the most on the Brewers, and there are only 16 teams in the NL, it isn't particularly notable.

 

The Padres, noted for their great bullpen, had two pitchers who pitched more games and innings than Turnbow - Heath Bell, who was great, and also Cla Meredith.

 

Turnbow pitched a normal workload for a setup man. He just wasn't as good or as consistent as some others.

he pitched 42 games before the all star break, only 35 afterwards.

His stats over previous years have shown he's terrible when he pitches back to back days, but he was still thrown out there to do that time and time again, and it failed.

 

When the manager puts the pitcher in a position where he is less likely to succeed, instead of managing the bullpen to get the most success out of who he has there and their individual skills and talents, that's where the problem comes in.

 

That's why I vote Nay.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Turnbow pitched 42 games in the first half, 35 in the second.

The Brewers played 88 games in the first half, 74 in the second.

 

88/162 * 77 = 41.83, which is the number of games a pitcher used in 77 games would be expected to pitch in the first half would pitch. Turnbow pitched 42. That's the closest to "the same" as you're going to get.

 

As for Turnbow pitching back to back days, before 2007 the stats were not dramatic. In both 2005 and 2006 he had better ERAs with no rest than with a day's rest.

 

Turnbow's best ERAs come with 2 days rest, but a relief pitcher that can only be used for one innning every three days is fairly useless to any manager.

[Bring Back the Stein]

"The bar is raised for all of us."

 

Does that comment from today's press conference mean that Melvin contemplates an in-season move to ax Yost if the Brewers falter out of the blocks? Or that Yost is with us until the end of the next season, getting fired if we don't make the NLDS? The latter is my vote (not my preference, but my expectation).

[TwinsBrewersWorldSeries]

Fire Yost... bring back Davey Lopes.......

 

*kidding*

 

But Seriously... LaRussa is leaving STL... the guy breathes success everywhere he goes...

 

Go get em Doug....... St Louis can have Ned Yost and endure 5 losing seasons.

[TooLiveBrew]

"I had four or five different goals in mind. Breaking the attendance record was one of them. Playing meaningful games deep into September was another. And playing winning baseball for the first time in 15 years. That's a huge hurdle to get over. We were hoping to do it all in one year but we missed it by two games."

 

Yost's comments are a joke. Each part of that excerpt applies directly to internet & newspaper banter from the last week or so of the season. A goal is not intangible - "Playing meaningful games deep into September" What? Totally malleable, and can fit nearly any way the season could have finished. "Breaking the attendance record" - apparently Ned now also works in the marketing and ticket sales divisions of the Milwaukee Brewers. No way this was a goal - nor can it be - for an MLB manager. Not in his control.

 

Perhaps the "winning baseball" one really was a goal, I can concede that - seems only fair to do so. But the other two smack of desparation and rhetorical spin efforts. Poor form, Ned. Your goal was the playoffs this year - you said it, Melvin said it, and when you didn't deliver, you went back with the white-out to see if anyone remembered. Insulting, but given the way you've interacted with the fans this year, no surprise.

 

Lemme guess, another goal was "Sell tons of player t-shirts, brats, and beer." We're smarter than you credit us, Ned.

[SeriesFinale]

St Louis can have Ned Yost and endure 5 losing seasons.

 

Well, to be fair to Ned, we've had only three losing seasons with him here in Milwaukee.

[DougJones43]

I just listened to Melvin's end of the year press conference. Since my thoughts about it involve Ned, I'll post them hear as to not offend people who don't like to see his name mentioned outside of this sanctuary.

 

It sounds like Melvin has a strong sense of loyalty towards Ned for his cooperation in being part of rebuilding and player development. I hope that loyalty hasn't clouded his ability to make a good decision on what's best for this team right now. I agree with him that Ned is a fine manager in that regard. His patience and ability to seemingly connect with the players probably helped set a good tone for the team.

 

Unfortunately (or fortunately - depending on your perspective), the time for rebuilding and player development is over for now. I would personally like different qualities to manage a contending team. I would like to see somebody with much more savvy. I don't really see how having a guy like Yost (whose biggest strengths are things the Brewers don't need) is helpful to the ultimate goal of winning a World Series.

[joeyhepatitis]

"I had four or five different goals in mind. Breaking the attendance record was one of them. Playing meaningful games deep into September was another. And playing winning baseball for the first time in 15 years. That's a huge hurdle to get over. We were hoping to do it all in one year but we missed it by two games."

 

Yost's comments are a joke. Each part of that excerpt applies directly to internet & newspaper banter from the last week or so of the season. A goal is not intangible - "Playing meaningful games deep into September" What? Totally malleable, and can fit nearly any way the season could have finished. "Breaking the attendance record" - apparently Ned now also works in the marketing and ticket sales divisions of the Milwaukee Brewers. No way this was a goal - nor can it be - for an MLB manager. Not in his control.

 

Perhaps the "winning baseball" one really was a goal, I can concede that - seems only fair to do so. But the other two smack of desparation and rhetorical spin efforts. Poor form, Ned. Your goal was the playoffs this year - you said it, Melvin said it, and when you didn't deliver, you went back with the white-out to see if anyone remembered. Insulting, but given the way you've interacted with the fans this year, no surprise.

 

Lemme guess, another goal was "Sell tons of player t-shirts, brats, and beer." We're smarter than you credit us, Ned.

The Brewers fought the first 4 months of the season trying to gain national respect for the quality ballclub they assembled and it seemed like the organization and the fans were on the same page, but as soon as things started to go south for the Brewers they started releasing those ridiculous quotes like Attanasio saying that fans New York and L.A. aren't as hard on their managers as Milwaukee. It's just gone so far backwards that I hate reading local stories about the Brewers in case I run across a quote from Prince that fans need to earn the right to be dissatisfied with the team or Haudricort explaining how ignorant all fans must be if they think Yost has done a bad job. To read this quote is like being punched in the stomach by Yost as he laughs, "You idiot! You actually had high expectations for us again!? We tricked all of you into thinking our goal was to win! We're just a small-market club from Milwaukee who wanted to sell out a couple games in September by hanging around .500 and losing our way into a post-season race in the worst division in baseball!"

Would it be that hard for him to just say, "We didn't make the play-offs and we're obviously very disappointed in our performance late in the season, but a lot of positives were gained from this season and we look forward to next year. Also, I'm sorry that I thought I would gain respect by being thrown out of games instead of using the opportunity to cultivate a winning attitude in a young ballclub." He could even leave out the apology and I'd still like it - I'm not picky...

[bklynbrewcrew]

DJ43, you completely hit the nail on the head. Yost may be fine for a rebuilding team where savvy (ingame decision making) isnt very important. The kids can make mistakes and so can he because there is little accountability on a day to day basis with a rebuilding team. Unfortunately when such a manager has a capable team looking to make the playoffs in game decision making can make the difference between playoffs and just missing out. Yosts in game decisions regarding bullpen and ridiculous lineup maneuvers easily cost us more than 2 games. There are no guarantees that this team wont be in the same position next year and Melvin is risking this teams immediate future if he keeps Ned around. Doug we all know that you like Ned but if you keep him you are likely risking your own job security in the process.

[DougJones43]

DJ43, you completely hit the nail on the head.

I would advise you not to listen to me though, as it has been pointed out numerous times that my comments are rooted in nothing more than blind hatred. Out of all of the people in the world I could have hated with the fury of a thousand suns, mine just randomly happened to be Ned Yost.

 

Much like the others who despise this man's very existance, it is not a strictly sports-related disapproval, and it is certainly not based on a fundamental disagreement in baseball philosophy. It is a personal hatred that knows no bounds. I didn't used to think this was the case, but thankfully there are a lot of people on this board that know exactly what goes on in my heart and in my head. Thank goodness I had them to set the record straight for me.

[endaround]

This is what annoys me about Yost. He's screwing up the easiest part of the job. Dealing with the media (even in Milwaukee) is a hard, making sure everyone is ready to go and everything accounted for is hard. The in game stuff is easy.

[1992casey]

Nedly Poll