Impressions of Roenicke so far (part 2)

[1992casey]

Maybe being a players manager and having a good team is like 95 % of it and in game decisions is the other half.

 

Did you borrow that from Yogi Berrra? http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[homer]

I think that had more to do with nobody capable of handling the position than the other way around. If they need to be in certain situations to succeed then maybe they just aren't that good.

Some guys can get righties out some guys can get lefties out.

[FVBrewerFan]

It's easy when your starter gives you 7 or 8 innings every night. It's not auto-managing when you have a stretch of a few games where yout have to use the bullpen more. Suddenly you have to make decsisions about how many games in a row some of these guys can pitch, how much you use Loe, etc.

 

It's also not an automatic decision when to take a SP out. I was shocked he left Wolf in as long as he did in 1-0 game, but it worked out. Not that pitch count was an issue, but he has baserunners on i nthe 7th, and RR let him get out of it. That is by no means cruise control managing. In general, he is starting to stretch out the SP a bit, letting them try to get through anothe rinning if they're at or close to 100 pitches. This only works because he rarely skipped any of Narveson's starts when he could have. So these guys are going deeper into games because RR has kept them fresh. That's not automatic either. It's big picture thinking, and a whole lot of managers would have skipped narveson's starts far more often than RR has.

[homer]

So these guys are going deeper into games because RR has kept them fresh. That's not automatic either. It's big picture thinking, and a whole lot of managers would have skipped narveson's starts far more often than RR has.

I think they're going deeper into games because they're good.

[FVBrewerFan]

Well, yea. But there are managers who would be more strict with pitch counts.

[Thurston Fluff]

Some guys can get righties out some guys can get lefties out.

 

I get what you mean. Problem is if a pen has too many of those types then there is no way to put players in the position to win. It's ok to have a loogy and maybe even a roogy. If the pen has more than that I don't believe you can put them in position to win. After all most teams have several righties and lefties mixed throughout the lineup. How many games can you change pitchers every time some off handed hitter comes to the plate before you implode the pen? You'd have to use most of the pen almost everyday. Ultimately I think you have to get pitchers who can pitch when needed vs find spots crappy ones have a chance of being successful in. If pitchers need to be in certain positions to be successful there comes a time there will not be enough spots they can succeed in to warrant a roster spot. You also would need to have a specific mix of these specialty pitchers to handle every position they may need to be in. Is that even realistic to do?

 

 

It's also not an automatic decision when to take a SP out. I was shocked he left Wolf in as long as he did in 1-0 game, but it worked out. Not that pitch count was an issue, but he has baserunners on i nthe 7th, and RR let him get out of it.

 

This to me is something I think he does well. Macha didn't have along leash. I know Macha didn't have the same quality of pitchers but he didn't do that with Wolf last season and he should have.

[Raw Biz]

http://brewersbeat.mlblogs.com/2011/08/22/roenicke-urges-care-with-beast-mode/

 

 

Apparently Roenicke doesn't like the players to celebrate. I understand that he doesn't want it to look like the players are showing anybody up. I also get that maybe they shouldn't do it after routine singles. But it seems like if Roenicke had his way, he wouldn't allow the beast mode celebration for anything. He says that he doesn't particularly like the celebration but he hasn't earned the same kind of respect that someone like La Russa or Cox has so he wouldn't come right out and outlaw it.

As much as I dislike his in-game decisions, lineup/bullpen management, etc., I always thought that Roenicke was the type of manager who could have a good time and have fun. But apparently he's even more old-school than I thought. Managers like this say they have no problem with their players having fun but then they get mad or disapprove of how the players demonstrate that fun. Like Morgan said, they're not trying to show anybody up.

[TracyThom]

rawbecht wrote:http://brewersbeat.mlblogs.com/2011/08/22/roenicke-urges-care-with-beast-mode/

Apparently Roenicke doesn't like the players to celebrate. I understand that he doesn't want it to look like the players are showing anybody up. I also get that maybe they shouldn't do it after routine singles. But it seems like if Roenicke had his way, he wouldn't allow the beast mode celebration for anything. He says that he doesn't particularly like the celebration but he hasn't earned the same kind of respect that someone like La Russa or Cox has so he wouldn't come right out and outlaw it.

As much as I dislike his in-game decisions, lineup/bullpen management, etc., I always thought that Roenicke was the type of manager who could have a good time and have fun. But apparently he's even more old-school than I thought. Managers like this say they have no problem with their players having fun but then they get mad or disapprove of how the players demonstrate that fun. Like Morgan said, they're not trying to show anybody up.

Rawbecht, you don't like Ron Roenicke. I get it. You've made your

opinion known countless times. You are making a pretty broad assumption

based on RR saying, "I mentioned some things to them, I mentioned some

things to a few guys. I don’t want it to get carried away" and “Do I

like it? Not particularly." He was later quoted saying something along

the lines that he has not earned the respect to make old school

decisions like LaRussa or Bobby Cox.

 

The way I understood the

article was that RR did not want his players celebrating based on

routine plays, kinda like a wide receiver who celebrates after a 9-yard

gain.

[Raw Biz]

Rawbecht, you don't like Ron Roenicke. I get it. You've made your

opinion known countless times. You are making a pretty broad assumption

based on RR saying, "I mentioned some things to them, I mentioned some

things to a few guys. I don’t want it to get carried away" and “Do I

like it? Not particularly." He was later quoted saying something along

the lines that he has not earned the respect to make old school

decisions like LaRussa or Bobby Cox.

 

The way I understood the

article was that RR did not want his players celebrating based on

routine plays, kinda like a wide receiver who celebrates after a 9-yard

gain.

When I first wrote this up, I said something along the lines of maybe I'm reading too much into it. But Yuku's been messing up for me lately so I lost that post and I must've forgot to include that part the second time. And I've said in the past that I always liked that Roenicke was a "players' manager" and that he seemed laid back. That's why this kind of took me by surprise because I always thought Roenicke was the type of manager who wouldn't let celebrations bother him. But now it looks like I didn't read too much into it because Haudricourt had this quote from him:

"I don't want it getting carried away," he said. "Do I like it? Not particularly. But I don't think I'll say, 'Don't do it.' If I see it getting worse, I'll say no. I didn't like when the Rangers did the 'antlers' thing (last year). If you're old school, you're not going to get along in the game these days."

So it looks like he doesn't actually like the celebration at all but will let it go as long as it isn't after every meaningless hit. And he came out and said he didn't like the Rangers thing last year either. So apparently I was right and he is the type of manager who doesn't like celebrations like that (but he will allow them, at least for now).

[DuWayne Steurer]

Dear RR. Please stop bunting with position players, especially those who suck at it.

 

Thanks.

[DougJones43]

Roenicke is the worst in-game manager I've ever seen. I would put him even below Yost as a tactician (which is REALLY saying something given the way I felt about Yost). I disagree with almost every meaningful decision he makes.

 

This team wins in spite of him, but unfortunately managers are judged by many people almost solely on win/losses. I'm very fearful, and almost certain, his dimwitted methodology will cost us dearly in the post-season.

[DHonks]

I don't mind bunting, but I don't like it in that situation. Given the defensive alignment and how Betancourt often hits the ball hard, the outcome could have been better with a swing. Of course, if he broke a finger, it would mean we'd at least temporarily get another SS

[Schlitz001]

Bottom of the 9th inning with 0 outs and runners on 1st and 2nd, down by 1 run. Bunting is a great idea, but Yuni is a terrible bunter.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I don't mind bunting, but I don't like it in that situation. Given the defensive alignment and how Betancourt often hits the ball hard, the outcome could have been better with a swing. Of course, if he broke a finger, it would mean we'd at least temporarily get another SS

I don't mind bunting when done by crappy hitting pitchers. When a .300 hitter is bunting in the first inning (and popping out as well) it bothers me. When a crap hitting SS who can't bunt is trying to bunt, it bothers me. He was going to use Counsell there ANYWAYS (as a PR), why not have the guy who can actually handle a bat and bunt, bunt?

[DougJones43]

It wasn't just the 9th inning bunt. It was that he allowed Betancourt (the guy has zero sac bunts this year, and doesn't even know how to hold the bat properly to lay one down -- come on, know your personnel) to bunt instead of Counsell. And still allowed Yuni to bunt even with the corner infielders on top of him. It was not bringing in Narveson to face the lefty in the 9th (what's the point of having him in the bullpen?). It was having Morgan bunting in the first inning. It's making sure Taylor Green doesn't even sniff an at-bat.

 

And that's all just in one game. The larger problem is, this game represents his knowledge and philosophy in it's entirety. If he could go back, he'd have done everything exactly the same.

[FVBrewerFan]

He could have bunted or hit away. If RR was intent on bunting (which is not a bad decision) why not use Greinke? He's done it before and it actually worked. And while he's at it, you let Counsell run for Fielder. At that point, doesn't matter what happens in extra innings, you need to maximize the odds of tying the game. Extra innings don't matter when you lose 2-1.

 

OR you let Yuni hit away, OR PH Kotsay or Green. I rather PH for Yuni and let Hairston hit if that's the situation.

 

I would have PH Greinke, bunted Counsell and Casey over to 2nd and 3rd with 2 outs and then let Hairston and Lucroy try to tie or win the game. No guarantee that would work, but it would offer the best chance to tie or win. Essentially, RR managed to choose the worst possible option. Let a guy try to bunt who can't, with the Cards fully expecting and playing for it. What bothers me most is I doubt RR reflects on this tonight or tomorrow, he's probably still convinced that was the best option. THAT'S what kills me. I don't care much about losing this game, I care that decisions like this will likely be made in the post-season.

[Oldcity]

The run expectancy matrix shows that bunting was the wrong move, though it's a pretty narrow differential and most managers would bunt there, so I can somewhat give him a pass there. As so many have said though, how can you have Yuni be the one to bunt?

 

Of course, I wouldn't have bunted anyway because the slow-running Fielder was the lead runner. It was just stupid overall to not use Kotsay or Green and let them swing away.

[danzig6767]

It wasn't just the 9th inning bunt. It was that he allowed Betancourt (the guy has zero sac bunts this year, and doesn't even know how to hold the bat properly to lay one down -- come on, know your personnel) to bunt instead of Counsell. And still allowed Yuni to bunt even with the corner infielders on top of him. It was not bringing in Narveson to face the lefty in the 9th (what's the point of having him in the bullpen?). It was having Morgan bunting in the first inning. It's making sure Taylor Green doesn't even sniff an at-bat.

 

And that's all just in one game. The larger problem is, this game represents his knowledge and philosophy in it's entirety. If he could go back, he'd have done everything exactly the same.

Of all the options Roenicke had with Betancourt at the plate there, letting Yuni bunt instead of Counsell while Freese/Pujols stood right on top of the plate made about as much sense as it would be to pinch hit Wilson for Braun with the game on the line.

 

With Freese and especially Pujols playing right on the plate, even if Roenicke had put the great bunter Counsell in to bunt for Betancourt, he's have to be perfect to get Prince over. Asking Yuni to get a perfect bunt down given the guy seems to have worse than little league bunting fundamentals with the wrap your whole hand around the bat stance, it would have taken a minor miracle to get Prince over.

 

Plus, given the Cardinals defensive alignment, the odds of them being able to turn a double play on a ground ball were significantly diminished, while at the same time holes were opened up for a ground ball to get through.

[GAME05]

i like to give managers a little leeway, but that was stupid on multiple levels. what got Yost fired wasn't any less ridiculous.

[adambr2]

We are 9.5 up in the division in late August and I think our manager is an unqualified moron.

 

Who would've thought?

 

Roenicke has no redeeming value. Actually, I take that back, he has one, his players respect him and will play hard for him. But that can be had out of any "people person". I'd hate to think that our manager's best quality has absolutely nothing to do with him knowing anything about baseball.

[TracyThom]

Roenicke has no redeeming value. Actually, I take that back, he has one, his players respect him and will play hard for him. But that can be had out of any "people person". I'd hate to think that our manager's best quality has absolutely nothing to do with him knowing anything about baseball.

I've never met Ron Roenicke, but I can pretty much guarantee that he has more baseball knowledge in his little finger than all of the Monday-morning quarterbacks combined. His critics here can't even agree if bunting in the 9th was the correct move. Some say bunting at all in that spot was a horrible choice due to the positioning of the fielders. Other say bunting in that spot would have been okay, but just not with Yuni. So which is it?

 

RR played professional baseball for 11 years. He has been a coach for 19 years, including being named Manager of the Year twice in the minors. When he was in the running for the Brewers manager vacancy, Joe Maddon gave RR a glowing review. Isn't Joe Maddon considered to be one of the most intelligent managers in baseball history?

 

Has he made some decisions that have backfired or not worked out this season? Absolutely. However, to say he knows nothing about baseball is ludacris.

 

[JimH5]

The whole bunt thing was dumb on so many levels.

 

1--Betancourt hasn't done it successfully in over a year.

2--The pitcher had walked the previous hitter and was in a jam. Why give up a free out?

3--Defense was right on top of Betancourt.

4--Baserunners were slow.

 

Even if he hits into a double play, you've still got the tying run on 3rd with 2 outs.

Roenicke takes the loss on that one.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I've never met Ron Roenicke, but I can pretty much guarantee that he has more baseball knowledge in his little finger than all of the Monday-morning quarterbacks combined.

 

 

I'd bet that's not even close to a truthful statement. Of all the sites I've trolled in the last dozen or so years, not many even come close to the in depth baseball talk and breakdowns that occur here. I'd bet there's no less than a good handful of guys from this very site that could be put in a Brewers uniform, sat in the dugout, and make better tactical decisions than RR on a nightly basis.

 

It's actually amazing to me that a guy like RR could be involved in baseball for as long as he has, and still make these incredible blunders on a weekly, if not nightly basis.

 

The problem is, that most baseball people feel that players simply can't play for/respect a guy who hasn't played baseball in the big leagues before. You don't see this in the NFL. Heck, the Packers head coach never played a down in the NFL, though he did play in college. And no, I'm not suggesting putting some 'nerd' in the dugout with a calculator and a laptop opened to Fangraphs, but the notion that a manager HAS to be a former player is a silly one at best.

[thebruce44]

Roenicke has no redeeming value. Actually, I take that back, he has one, his players respect him and will play hard for him. But that can be had out of any "people person". I'd hate to think that our manager's best quality has absolutely nothing to do with him knowing anything about baseball.

I've never met Ron Roenicke, but I can pretty much guarantee that he has more baseball knowledge in his little finger than all of the Monday-morning quarterbacks combined. His critics here can't even agree if bunting in the 9th was the correct move. Some say bunting at all in that spot was a horrible choice due to the positioning of the fielders. Other say bunting in that spot would have been okay, but just not with Yuni. So which is it?

 

RR played professional baseball for 11 years. He has been a coach for 19 years, including being named Manager of the Year twice in the minors. When he was in the running for the Brewers manager vacancy, Joe Maddon gave RR a glowing review. Isn't Joe Maddon considered to be one of the most intelligent managers in baseball history?

 

Has he made some decisions that have backfired or not worked out this season? Absolutely. However, to say he knows nothing about baseball is ludacris.

While he probably knows more about what goes on in the dugout, in the clubhouse, at practices, and and in preparation for the game due to those years playing and coaching I have to strongly disagree that he knows more about in game management at this point than many of the posters here. And why would he? While he has an extensive background in the behind the scenes stuff while most here don't, I'm confident I've seen enough baseball played in my life at 30 to out-tactician him in an actual game.

And for the record, I do think thats very sad. I wish organizations would find some very intelligent people who have coached at lower levels and give them a chance in the minors with an eye on an actual MLB position instead of going through the old boys club of guys who couldn't hit but still made it to the majors. Its like a club where they wont let intelligent people in. A Belichick type wouldn't even be considered in MLB circles.

[fondybrewfan]

I had no problem at all about the bunt in the 9th inning; obviously the execution was poor. I would say virtually every manager in MLB would have done that; especially when you are getting to the bottom of your order that doesn't have as much doubles power. Yuni has sucked for 2 weeks now; I have no confidence that he would have done anything good if he had swung away. Yeah the previous 2 guys walked; but does anyone really think Yuni would have been patient up there? RR probably could have gone to Counsell though if he really wanted to bunt. If I had a criticism of RR last night; that would be it.

 

I am not so sure that RR is telling Morgan to bunt all the time in the beginning of games. I think that might be at least partially Morgan doing his own thing. Morgan does it every stinking game; I guess I just don't think RR is giving him the automatic bunt sign when Hart gets on 1st.

 

Bottom line if the players would have executed last night (Two awful errors, Fielder striking out on a ball above his head with a guy on 3rd) the Brewers win the game.