Impressions of Roenicke so far (part 2)

[fondybrewfan]

RR is a genius http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif The guy is pulling a lot of good strings right now though.

 

I just figured out something really freaky.

 

These are four of the head coaches for major sports teams in WI

 

Ron Roenicke

Mike McCarthy

Brett Bielema

Scott Skiles

 

Weird

[heresrobin]

That's Trippy

[gregmag]

I'm not inclined to give Roenicke credit for low-percentage moves that happen to pan out, like sticking with Yuni. But I do think he deserves credit for going with Estrada today. A lot of people, myself included, would have preferred FDLC, and there are good reasons for that preference, but it's not an obvious call one way or the other. Estrada has made good starts before, and clearly RR had a good sense of Estrada's ability to pitch five innings.

[FVBrewerFan]

See, that's one thing I don't pin on RR at all. Yuni? Who else would he play regularly at SS? Wilson? He barely has more range than Yuni, and wouldn't OPS at Yuni's level. Counsell? Really? Who else is there?

[The Truth]

See, that's one thing I don't pin on RR at all. Yuni? Who else would he play regularly at SS? Wilson? He barely has more range than Yuni, and wouldn't OPS at Yuni's level. Counsell? Really? Who else is there?

Jerry Hairston Jr and his .324 OBP... though it could be argued that Betancourt is better than Lopez & Kotsay so therefore Hairston is needed even more at 2B or in the CF platoon

 

Really it should be Taylor Green at 2B & Hairston at SS

[gregmag]

I didn't mean that I blame RR for bad Yuni, just that I don't credit him for good Yuni -- which probably no one does; I was just making a poor effort to come up with a contrasting example. You're right that, during the time when Yuni was killing the team, RR didn't really have other options, and at this point I doubt one manager in twenty would bench Yuni for Hairston tomorrow.

[danzig6767]

There have been plenty of other times the last month or so where i'll see people calling Roenicke a clown, idiot, buffoon, etc before a game starts for the lineup he puts out there and since those certain fans made these assertions, they'll still rip him even when those moves he made worked out well and contributed to a win. It's ridiculous. Same with if he calls for some bunts or a squeeze plays that work out great for the team, but Roenicke will still get called stupid or lucky for making those calls simply because they don't believe in bunting or squeeze plays.

You can make a horrible decision and have a good result as well as make a good decision and have a bad result. I don't think you understand that by your statement.

 

By hitting Kotsay 3rd or playing Kotsay over, well, anyone on our bench who can play the OF, RRR is making a horrible decision, meaning that over time, his results will be worse than anyone else who can play the OF.

Ummm, yes i do. I wouldn't ever bat Kotsay third in the order and would be mad if RR did it a lot. In the end though, Kotsay did have a very good game that day when so many went crazy of the decision by Roenicke. So bottom line is it didn't cost the team at all, it helped. Obviously though if RR did this often, it would hurt the team a lot, but he won't because Braun will be in the lineup pretty much everyday going forward. One last thing on the lineup. This forum is full of people who are heavily into sabermetrics and i recall reading quite a few times from them about how saber studies have shown that many fans way overrate the importance of lineup composition, to the point that if you pulled names out of a hat each day, over 162 games the impact on runs scored would be fairly minimal. Yet, Roenicke bats Kotsay 3rd in the order one time and multiple people here go crazy, acting like he was sabotaging the season, even though Kotsay had a great game.

 

Same thing sometimes with bunts. Say Hart gets a double to leadoff the inning and Morgan bunts Hart over to third. There inevitably will be some screaming in the game thread about what a moron Roenicke is, but if then Braun hits a sac fly and Fielder grounds out to end the inning which results in a run, he's given no credit. Now if Morgan constantly bunted with someone on base, i'd have a problem also, but between times it helped lead to a run along with other times where Nyjer actually got a hit on the bunt also or forced an error via his speed on a bunt, i have very few issues with the amount of times he bunts. Yet, some here consistently rail about almost any bunting regardless if it works out and also don't give credit that we've won at least 2 games on walk off squeeze plays, along with 1-2 other successful squeeze plays. Some here though hating bunting so much that even these multiple successful squeeze plays seem to bother them just because the squeezes could have backfired, even though they didn't.

 

FWIW, i get why Roenicke really got on peoples nerves the first few months of the season because i was in that camp. His rationale for thinking Gomez had changed as a hitter based on spring training was simply ridiculous. His rationale regarding Loe before Melvin got K-Rod and Loe facing good lefthanded hitters in the 8th inning of close games was also stupid. His continued defending of his "aggressive baserunning" policy as it lead to numerous dreadful outs on the bases was silly. Well, Roenicke at least accepted he was wrong on Gomez. We've been making fewer dumb outs on the bases. Since getting K-Rod, i very much like how Roenicke is handling the bullpen. His risky decision to move Hart to the top of the order has worked out wonderfully, even though many fans ripped him for doing it. So to me, he seems to be growing on the job and the continued loud nitpicking by some goes overboard, especially on issues which are minor in the grand scheme of things, like batting Kotsay 3rd in one game instead of 6th or 7th. It's more an issue of Melvin that if Braun or Hart needs a day off, Kotsay is all that's left with Gomez on the DL.

[TooLiveBrew]

Well, Roenicke at least accepted he was wrong on Gomez. We've been making fewer dumb outs on the bases.

 

I agree, he definitely showed the ability to correct these issues. I hope he continues to refine his craft.

[cwolf2012]

"Since getting K-Rod, i very much like how Roenicke is handling the bullpen."

 

Cherry picking your post here, but I'm pretty sure not a single person in the world could screw up the Brewer's bullpen at this point. It's 4 people who are all about the same, and starters haven't gone really any shorter than 6 innings in a month. It's the most dummy-proofed BP I've ever seen.

[fondybrewfan]

RR was a rookie manager who I am sure came in thinking there was an exact way to do things. As the year has gone it seems like he has adapted quite nicely. He still occasionaly makes a mistake but I think he has come around with his game management. I think he does an excellent job managing the roster and getting playing time for the bench guys that he has to rely on late in games. In a perfect world his pinch hit options wouldn't be Kotsay, Counsell, Wilson, and Hairston/Lopez but he has handled the chips he does have pretty well.

[cwolf2012]

I will admit he's gotten better. I still think he's terrible, but he's not "I want to throw stuff" bad any more.

[TooLiveBrew]

I think that sums up my thoughts, too, Tim

[Glennron]

Calling for a squeeze (assuming it wasn't Prince that missed the sign) with one of your worst hitters and one of your slowest baserunners might not be the best idea. Know your personnel.

[Gobias Industries]

I still think he's "throw stuff worthy". I just haven't had to actually throw stuff because we keep winning. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif A couple things a night he does are just straight up terrible, but we're just in a stretch where we can overcome anything right now and it turns out a lot of his bad decisions in hindsight have worked. Having 4 #2 starters and a shutdown reliever for the 7th, 8th and 9th is making his job an absolute breeze.

 

He's definitely in the Scioscia and Madden mold of being a complete dolt but still getting positive results. Maybe being a players manager and having a good team is like 95 % of it and in game decisions is the other half.

[fondybrewfan]

Yeah I'll be curious to see who messed up the sign with Yuni up. I hope Prince mistakenly thought the squeeze was on; because a squeeze with Yuni up and Prince at 3rd is just about the worst possible combination of players to call a squeeze play for.

 

RR has gotten a little squeeze happy, that has got to be 4 or 5 times we've tried it now and I believe it has worked twice. Be happy it has worked at all and just retire the idea right now.

[Glennron]

RR has gotten a little squeeze happy, that has got to be 4 or 5 times we've tried it now and I believe it has worked twice. Be happy it has worked at all and just retire the idea right now.

I think that's exactly it. They won that game with Lucroy doing it, who happens to be a good bunter, so RR seems to have really taken to the idea. Just stop.

 

Also I guess on the local news they just said it was Yuni who indeed missed the sign. I don't know what's more frustrating, the fact that RR thought it was a good call, or that Betancourt could have maimed Fielder if he connected on one.

[homer]

Having 4 #2 starters and a shutdown reliever for the 7th, 8th and 9th is making his job an absolute breeze.

Heck you could say they have shutdown relievers for the 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th (Saito, Hawkins, KRod, Axe). I can't remember a Brewer pitching staff this good since the early 80's.

 

I guess '92 was pretty decent.

[adambr2]

"Since getting K-Rod, i very much like how Roenicke is handling the bullpen."

 

Cherry picking your post here, but I'm pretty sure not a single person in the world could screw up the Brewer's bullpen at this point. It's 4 people who are all about the same, and starters haven't gone really any shorter than 6 innings in a month. It's the most dummy-proofed BP I've ever seen.

 

Agreed....you have Ax for the 9th, K-Rod for setup, the healthier/fresher of Saito/Hawkins for setup, Loe for a groundball situation, Estrada for long man/garbage time, and Dillard for randomly getting up and stretching. Except for the very rare occasion, there is literally nothing to handle.

[RobDeer 45]

I believe the squeeze has worked more than twice but I could be wrong. I feel like it's been a great play for them. I'd love to know the stats on it for us this season.

[adambr2]

I believe the squeeze has worked more than twice but I could be wrong. I feel like it's been a great play for them. I'd love to know the stats on it for us this season.

Not sure what the stats are on the squeeze, but I believe I heard somewhere that your odds of getting a guy in from 3rd with 1 out playing straight up is 57%. So, for the squeeze to be productive, it needs to top that.

 

 

[RobDeer 45]

I believe a squeeze plays odds are, 57% of the time, it works all the time. haha. But seriously I would love to know our avg success rate for that on the year.

[homer]

Agreed....you have Ax for the 9th, K-Rod for setup, the healthier/fresher of Saito/Hawkins for setup, Loe for a groundball situation, Estrada for long man/garbage time, and Dillard for randomly getting up and stretching. Except for the very rare occasion, there is literally nothing to handle.

Yeah I almost don't want them to get a LOOGY. It might make RR's head explode.

[Thurston Fluff]

Agreed....you have Ax for the 9th, K-Rod for setup, the healthier/fresher of Saito/Hawkins for setup, Loe for a groundball situation, Estrada for long man/garbage time, and Dillard for randomly getting up and stretching. Except for the very rare occasion, there is literally nothing to handle.

 

It's equally hard to not screw up a bad bullpen. I don't buy into the belief there is some manager who is capable of making chicken salad out of chicken poop. Not good chicken salad anyway. I think there may be managers who can screw up a good staff. Lets look at what could have been screwed up. He could have screwed up the closer situation. They could be sharing or he could have just replaced Ax. He could refuse to accept Loe wasn't the answer in the 8th. He could have over pitched Saito or Hawkins. He could insist on a loogy no matter how bad they are. He could have replaced starter earlier in some games and overworked the staff.

[homer]

I don't buy into the belief there is some manager who is capable of making chicken salad out of chicken poop.

 

Well no but there's putting guys in the best position to succeed and maximizing the talent of each player. RR did not do that, IMO, before Saito and Hawkins got healthy and KRod entered the picture.

[Thurston Fluff]

I think that had more to do with nobody capable of handling the position than the other way around. If they need to be in certain situations to succeed then maybe they just aren't that good.