Impressions of Roenicke so far (part 2)

[The Truth]

Roenicke's inability to see Felipe Lopez as a minor leaguer at best is frightening

[logan82]

Yuni and Kotsay should not be playing as much as they are. Kotsay shouldn't even be on the roster. Yuni should be relegates to starting against LHP and being replaced on defense late in games. Green for Counsell, Gamel for Kotsay and Yuni moved further down the pecking order below Hairston. Some fault on DM for the roster, some fault on the manager for no having a clue about the talent level of the players on the roster outside of the obvious stars.

[greeg35]

Classic overrating of the value of veteran grittiness by both I think.

[joepepsi]

Roenicke's inability to see Felipe Lopez as a minor leaguer at best is frightening

Unfortunately DM brought in Lopez specifically as an injury replacement for Weeks. I think RR is obligated to play him most of the time. Hopefully that will change a bit after Hairston's fine 2B performance the other night.

 

The problem with Kotsay is every time it looks like he should be kicked to the curb, he has a 2 for 3 night like last night, or a 3 for 5 like his previous start. Plus he's had a few big hits late in games. Just enough to make a GM and manager think his veteran grittiness is an essential part of the team. He has no power and plays too much, but there is no guarantee a different player could hit .258/.313 in a limited role like this.

[FVBrewerFan]

We can debate Yuni, Kotsay, Counsell, etc. forever. Every decision is important, I'm not denying that. With that said, the biggest decisions that have affected wins and losses are:

 

1) Sticking with Loe as the "8th inning guy" far too long.

 

2) Refusing to bring up Green 2 months ago to at least platoon with McGehee.

 

That's it, in a nutshell. #1 speaks for itself. As for Green, there was very little downside and potentially a huge upside by giving him a shot. Yuni, Kotsay, Counsell, etc. weren't expected to be major offensive contributors. McGehee was/is. That's what's really killing the full potential of this offense.

 

McGehee had a fe huge hits over the last couple weeks, and that's great. But his OPS still hasn't risen very much, even during his "hot" streak. If Green came up when he should have, there wouldn't be any fears about having a wide-eyed rookie playing 3B during the stretch run in a pennant race. He would already be settled in by now.

 

Put another way, no matter what McGehee does down the stretch, do you have any confidence in him facing the top of the rotation from the Phillies or Braves?

[The Truth]

Put another way, no matter what McGehee does down the stretch, do you have any confidence in him facing the top of the rotation from the Phillies or Braves?

Nope. And I feel the same way about Betancourt, Kotsay, and Counsell too.

[fondybrewfan]

Put another way, no matter what McGehee does down the stretch, do you have any confidence in him facing the top of the rotation from the Phillies or Braves?

Nope. And I feel the same way about Betancourt, Kotsay, and Counsell too.

Phillies - No Way; don't like our stars in that match up either

Atlanta - Maybe; the ATL starters aren't as dominant and have had some injury issues of late; who knows what their rotation will look like in the playoffs

 

The playoffs is a whole different ballgame; it is probably pretty unlikely that Kotsay would get even one start in the playoffs unless someone was hurt. McGehee and Yuni probably will be out there every day. If Weeks comes back Counsell will strictly be a pinch hitter and/or defensive replacement. The role of the role players usually get reduced in the playoffs I think.

 

[istanbultaye]

I'm ok with Kotsay on the bench, since he does have at least a little bit of on base skill, (not that .313 mentioned above is a good obp, it's still better than a lot of the rest of the bench, and some of the starters). He's not a huge drop off defensively in the corners from what I've seen, but I cringe every time I see him in CF, compared to the 2-3 other players we have had to play that position basically all year. The only guy on the bench with a better OBP than him is Josh Wilson, and that's only at .315. So, the rest of the bench needs to be revamped much more dramatically than his spot.

 

That said, I do think that Roenicke has overvalued him, by evidence of his still occasionally seeing time in center, and batting 3rd or 5th when he gives Hart or Braun a breather.

[logan82]

So, the rest of the bench needs to be revamped much more dramatically than his spot.

 

The problem is that there is a good chance Gamel of Green could come up and put up better numbers than Kotsay with improved defense. We still have Boggs hanging out in AAA who could put up better numbers and we know he would bring better defense. Counsell and Wilson escape the criticism a bit since we don't have a readily available replacement in AAA. Kotsay, Counsell and Lopez should all be replaced once Weeks is healthy.

[owbc]

Logan, how many more wins do you think the Brewers would have if management would have followed your opinions on personnel moves this year?

[jwill535]

Put another way, no matter what McGehee does down the stretch, do you have any confidence in him facing the top of the rotation from the Phillies or Braves?

Nope. And I feel the same way about Betancourt, Kotsay, and Counsell too.

I have even less confidence that a rookie, who has never seen those pitchers, would have even more success.

[logan82]

About 2-3. 3-4 by the end of the season. We probably pick up 1 for using Loe properly. 1 for going to a Morgan/Gomez platoon from the start, never putting Kotsay in CF and dropping Gomez down the order. 1 from not sac bunting in the first inning and platooning Green with McGehee starting in late May or early June. I know 2-3 doesn't sound like much but it could be huge by the end of the season. That ignores the whole Nieves debacle at the start of the season.

 

As it is right now, Morgan should probably be in CF full time until Gomez returns. Hariston should be at 2B against LHP and at SS against RHP.

 

I know the bench players' role will be reduced a bit if we make the playoffs but if they do come into the game it is going to be for high leverage PA. I don't want to see any of the guy currently on our bench hitting in an important spot in the post season.

[FVBrewerFan]

Put another way, no matter what McGehee does down the stretch, do you have any confidence in him facing the top of the rotation from the Phillies or Braves?

Nope. And I feel the same way about Betancourt, Kotsay, and Counsell too.

I have even less confidence that a rookie, who has never seen those pitchers, would have even more success.

So you don't think Green can hit better than Counsell? Is that what you're saying? You make it sound like these guys are going from Hign School to MLB. It is a step up, but not as big as you make it sound. Braun, Fielder, Weeks, Hart, etc. came up and hit right away. Look at what Lawrie is doing. What Posey did in the post-season last year. If a guy can hit, he can hit.

[danzig6767]

About 2-3. 3-4 by the end of the season. We probably pick up 1 for using Loe properly. 1 for going to a Morgan/Gomez platoon from the start, never putting Kotsay in CF and dropping Gomez down the order. 1 from not sac bunting in the first inning and platooning Green with McGehee starting in late May or early June. I know 2-3 doesn't sound like much but it could be huge by the end of the season. That ignores the whole Nieves debacle at the start of the season.

 

As it is right now, Morgan should probably be in CF full time until Gomez returns. Hariston should be at 2B against LHP and at SS against RHP.

 

I know the bench players' role will be reduced a bit if we make the playoffs but if they do come into the game it is going to be for high leverage PA. I don't want to see any of the guy currently on our bench hitting in an important spot in the post season.

How could Roenicke platoon a player with McGehee that was in Nashville? Besides the fact that bringing up a player from the minors is the call of the GM, not the manager, no way was anyone going to even consider bringing up Green in late May. By that point Casey looked to be in a slump and no GM benches an everyday player during a slump which happens a lot in the big leagues. It wasn't until about mid-June where i think any GM would start getting really concerned that this wasn't a common slump and when i think some would have strongly started considering options for thirdbase.

 

As for platooning Morgan/Gomez from the get go, there weren't that many games which went by before RR went to the platoon. It was injuries to Morgan that were a by far a bigger factor in why Gomez had to play everyday for awhile, especially after Nyjer missed a few weeks after getting hit on the bunt attempt. Batting Carlos second is where i had a much bigger issue. The Kotsay playing in CF issue was dumb, but it was only nine games and in those nine games.

 

Like many others here, Roenicke did things the first few months of the year that really troubled me like batting Carlos second, being ok with the "aggressive baserunning" which lead to a ton of outs, and especially his use of Loe in the pen. There were very legit criticisms. That said, i think he's been growing as a manager as the season has gone along, yet some go way overboard in trying to pick apart every move he makes, even when it works out well. He could say start Kotsay in a game and many fans will be calling Roenicke an idiot before the game starts, and then even if Kotsay ends up having a good game, they still criticize him. There have been plenty of other times the last month or so where i'll see people calling Roenicke a clown, idiot, buffoon, etc before a game starts for the lineup he puts out there and since those certain fans made these assertions, they'll still rip him even when those moves he made worked out well and contributed to a win. It's ridiculous. Same with if he calls for some bunts or a squeeze plays that work out great for the team, but Roenicke will still get called stupid or lucky for making those calls simply because they don't believe in bunting or squeeze plays.

 

Basically, it gets to be an attitude for some here of Roenicke only should do what i think should be done, and if he doesn't, he's an idiot regardless of if those moves work out well for the team.

[xiaogao]

logan, how many more games would we have lost if you had been manager?

[cwolf2012]

"logan, how many more games would we have lost if you had been manager?"

 

According to his answer above, negative 2-3. I see what you're fishing for here, but I can already see what you're going to say. I'm going to preempt you with "don't say it, you're thinking the wrong way about it. "

[Baldkin]

There have been plenty of other times the last month or so where i'll see people calling Roenicke a clown, idiot, buffoon, etc before a game starts for the lineup he puts out there and since those certain fans made these assertions, they'll still rip him even when those moves he made worked out well and contributed to a win. It's ridiculous. Same with if he calls for some bunts or a squeeze plays that work out great for the team, but Roenicke will still get called stupid or lucky for making those calls simply because they don't believe in bunting or squeeze plays.

You can make a horrible decision and have a good result as well as make a good decision and have a bad result. I don't think you understand that by your statement.

 

By hitting Kotsay 3rd or playing Kotsay over, well, anyone on our bench who can play the OF, RRR is making a horrible decision, meaning that over time, his results will be worse than anyone else who can play the OF.

[logan82]

How could Roenicke platoon a player with McGehee that was in Nashville?

 

His question was

 

Logan, how many more wins do you think the Brewers would have if management would have followed your opinions on personnel moves this year?

 

It asked about personnel moves.

 

As for platooning Morgan/Gomez from the get go, there weren't that many games which went by before RR went to the platoon.

 

I also included hitting Gomez towards the top of the order and Kotsay in CF along with the platoon to add up to one win.

[xiaogao]

regardless of the nature of the question, most of the suggestions were managerial -- platoons, benching, starting.

you added up the wins we would have gained by the different moves you would have made. are we to assume that you would have done everything else exactly the same as rrr? or would you have made some moves that cost wins too?

[FVBrewerFan]

Furthermore, I think we're naive if we believe RR doesn't play a major role in roster decisions. Sometimes people make it sound like DM makes these roster moves with zero input from RR. RR could have easily went to DM and said "Look, I love Casey McGehee but he just looks lost. I think it's time we give this kid Green a chance to platoon while Casey figures it out." Does anyone believe if he did that DM would ignore it? A good GM will try to give his manager what he wants, within reason of course. So I don't think we can give RR a free pass on roster management. Nieves, for sample, was completely a RR decision.

[RockCoCougars]

In 2009 and 2010, the team underachieved. This season, I think they have overachieved. What is there not to like? Yes I know that Kenny didn't have the pitching, but at this point, the Brewers are 13 games ahead of where they were last season and 10 games ahead of 2009. People will nitpick anything, but like I said a while back, Roenicke's personality is a huge intangible.

[jjfanec]

In 2009 and 2010, the team underachieved. This season, I think they have overachieved. What is there not to like? Yes I know that Kenny didn't have the pitching, but at this point, the Brewers are 13 games ahead of where they were last season and 10 games ahead of 2009. People will nitpick anything, but like I said a while back, Roenicke's personality is a huge intangible.

This. Roenicke is not a perfect manager but he is a great fit for this team. As to the underachieving or overachieving debate I found the thread predicting our record from the beginning of the year. At the beginning of the year 70% this board was predicting the Crew to win 88-92. Only 12% said they would win more and 18% said they would win less. At 68-51 .500 ball the rest of the way would put us at 89 or 90 wins right about what everyone was predicting. 92 or more wins is definitely attainable and the team has done a great job overcoming the Weeks injury and playing solid ball on the road lately.

[rluzinski]

Only in baseball do fans go on and on about how important it is to have a manager who the players like. I have no doubt it is a benefit to the team but it is just so way down the list of "what makes teams win games".

[RockCoCougars]

Only in baseball do fans go on and on about how important it is to have a manager who the players like. I have no doubt it is a benefit to the team but it is just so way down the list of "what makes teams win games".

I don't know if it's just baseball, I know that personally, I've complained about the personalities of coaches in other teams. Perhaps it's due to the long grind of a baseball season. These guys are with each other sometimes 24-7 for over 7 months. I think it would be impossible for personalities not to play a role. It just seemed that the last two seasons, the team wasn't having much fun- right from the start. I'll go back to my personal analogy about bosses, in that some of the 'smartest' were also the worst because their people skills left a lot to be desired. Maybe it's a personal flaw, but I won't, shall we say, 'go the extra mile' for someone that I don't like. Judging from co-workers I've had over the years though, it seems to be pretty common.

[FVBrewerFan]

I would say respecting the manager is far more important than liking him. Oh, and that goes for the typical workplace as well.