Impressions of Roenicke so far (part 2)

[rluzinski]

If hating some players or the manager make following them more fun then by all means do so.

 

You think rabid Brewer fans are willing themselves to dislike RR and some players in order to increase their enjoyment of the team?

 

I knew I wouldn't like RR's managing style even before he played a single game for the Brewers. He made it clear he was going to be "Running Ron" no matter what. I certainly did not anticipate him falling in love with guys like Gomez and Kotsay, however. Every time he pencils those guys in at #2 and #3 in the batting order, it detracts from my enjoyment of that game. If you want to say I shouldn't let it bother me, fine. Just don't suggest that I WANT to dislike RR. He plays a brand of baseball I don't think maximizes the odds of my favorite team winning, so it pains me when I am subjected to him trying to "make things happen".

[Thurston Fluff]

I tend to agree this is a two year window we are playing with. I can understand fear that it will not produce more than the one playoff appearance with this group. I don't understand why that leads to not liking a team in first place. To me it should enhance it not take away from it. This group is set up to get to more playoffs than the 80's Brewers did. They are on pace to tie it this season. If a person can't enjoy the now when the now is as good as it has ever been then what is the point of following the team at all?

[Funketown]

I tend to agree this is a two year window we are playing with. I can understand fear that it will not produce more than the one playoff appearance with this group. I don't understand why that leads to not liking a team in first place. To me it should enhance it not take away from it. This group is set up to get to more playoffs than the 80's Brewers did. They are on pace to tie it this season. If a person can't enjoy the now when the now is as good as it has ever been then what is the point of following the team at all?

Personally I feel like it makes the wins much more enjoyable and the losses more painful. As much as I hate watching Betancourt this season, I've enjoyed watching Weeks. Overall I'm relatively satisfied with how the team has performed, as they've pretty much played up to expectations. I think a lot of the negativity just stems from the fact that generally more passionate arguments on this message board come from players that aren't living up to expectations.

[COBrewerfan]

I tend to agree this is a two year window we are playing with. I can understand fear that it will not produce more than the one playoff appearance with this group. I don't understand why that leads to not liking a team in first place. To me it should enhance it not take away from it. This group is set up to get to more playoffs than the 80's Brewers did. They are on pace to tie it this season. If a person can't enjoy the now when the now is as good as it has ever been then what is the point of following the team at all?

 

Having a brewer team in first place and even competitive is very exciting. I dislike a few players but happy when they do well. When you see posts that make fun of and tear down a player even when he has a good game, I lose all credibility for that poster. This is where the hatred has taken over and you can not be a realistic judge of the talent. RR is just like alot of managers in the game. He has his "guys" in certain spots and that is the way it is. And I have said before that any manager to hold the position will be hammered by some. When players dont produce, blame has to be placed somewhere.

[Thurston Fluff]

RR is just like alot of managers in the game. He has his "guys" in certain spots and that is the way it is.

 

Very true. I wonder why that is. Maybe it's just human nature or maybe it has to do with what a player was told and how long a manager believes he has to stick by his word. Every player knows production is necessary but every player on the team probably has an idea of whether said player was given enough of a chance. Not giving a player enough of a chance IMHO is as bad as giving him too long of one. Both because if the player can get straightened out it makes the team stronger and because every other player has to trust what is being told him is true.

This is a case in which everyone does it may have a reason other than they are all stupid.

[reillymcshane]

I generally don't care much about a manager. I think it's mostly common sense. Macha and Yost seemed to have had personality traits that didn't gel with players. I understand that's part of the game - and if things aren't working, it happens.

 

That said, with regard to RRR, I am still in disbelief at several aspects of his line up management. Plus some in game decision making as well.

 

1. The (over)use of Mark Kotsay is beyond explanation. He was batting the #3 spot this weekend. Mark Kotsay!

2. His (over)use of Loe is baffling as well. Loe vs Votto with the game on the line? Sounds like a plan to me. Players - like most people - thrive on 'roles'. But RRR's 'Loe is our 8th inning guy' commitment was over done. Roles should be a guideline - not a strict rule of thumb. And in the case of Loe, he has NEVER been that good that he should be given the benefit of the doubt about his role. His lack of flexibility is astonishing in some instances.

3. He seems to forget he has options in the bullpen.

4. His banishment of Lucroy from Wolf starts is really stupid. At least we have Kottaras to play in these games instead of Nieves. But when a left is playing, and Lucroy isn't in the lineup because Wolf is being a baby, that just kills me.

5. That McGehee hit 5th for so long is dumb as well.

[Baldkin]

This is where the hatred has taken over and you can not be a realistic judge of the talent. RR is just like alot of managers in the game. He has his "guys" in certain spots and that is the way it is. And I have said before that any manager to hold the position will be hammered by some. When players dont produce, blame has to be placed somewhere.

No, this is not true at all. The managers job should be putting the players in the best position to succeed as a team. I will complain and hammer the manager when he does this, whether the players produce in those situations or not.

 

When you have 4 or 5 good hitters and they are not hitting 1-5 in the lineup, in favor of Mark Kotsay or Carlos Gomez, that is not putting your team in the best position to succeed. Kameron Loe facing talented LHB's, is not putting your team in the best position to succeed, even if he strikes Helton or Votto out, I would still complain.

 

Results are separate from decision making.

[Thurston Fluff]

The managers job should be putting the players in the best position to succeed as a team.

 

Obviously he feels those moves are the best moves for the team to succeed over the long haul. Since the long haul hasn't been completed it seems a bit premature to think they have failed. You seem to be assessing the move in a vacuum. Yet the game isn't played in a vacuum. It is played in context of a long season with players being told by coaches what is expected of them. Usually that also includes a rough idea of how long they have to achieve those goals. If you assume all those things you mentioned are not putting the team in the best position to win then you need to know what the ramifications of doing something different are. Did he tell his players they are going to be given a long leash or short one? Did he tell them this is their role or did he say it's an open competition for that role? Those things matter when deciding if he is putting the team in the best position to win as possible. Maybe you feel Machaing it and ticking off or unduly adding pressure to the players is ok and it doesn't effect how the team plays over a long period of time but I think it does matter. In other words putting the players in the best possible position to win isn't as simple as not letting Loe pitch against lefties ever because how Loe is treated effects how the next guy in line performs in his place. That may not be putting that guy in the best position to win as well.

[COBrewerfan]

Backup I couldn't have said it better myself. I need to copy and paste this in response to so many things here. Everything is so reactionary on a message board and there are so many other factors that go into a managers decision making. It's easy to believe you know the best way to use a player while posting to a board. However, there are relationships and things said that we never know. A manager needs to relate to players to get the most out of them. While making some of the moves suggested on here immediately may work, itmay have a negative effect long term to the team. I have always believed baseball managing is more about talent than anything else and he is just there to make sure players get along and manage attitudes. Torre is an example that is always given. Seeing he was awful before the yankees, was amazing with the yankees, and suddenly got worse after he left the yankees and went to the dodgers. With the yankees he had all the pieces and just managed huge egos and made sure there was a happy clubhouse.

[The Truth]

It's easy to believe you know the best way to use a player while posting to a board. However, there are relationships and things said that we never know. A manager needs to relate to players to get the most out of them. While making some of the moves suggested on here immediately may work, it may have a negative effect long term to the team.

Thats all well and good but there is still no logical explanation as to why Kotsay should ever bat 3rd or why Casey had an extra month batting 5th or why Betancourt plays as much as he does. Making sure Kotsay never bats in the top half of the lineup could not negatively possibly effect the team or Kotsay longterm

[COBrewerfan]

Sure there is. Who else is going to bat in the 3 hole? 5 hole? Braun is out which has created some issues. They moved some guys around and Kotsay was in the 3 for a bit. Saying they shouldn't be in that position is great but what are the options? Hart is leading off, Weeks in the 5. So you move Weeks to 3 and then you would complain about the 5. Not worth complaining about because either way somebody is not going to be happy. Just like our SS is so bad, he is OPS'ing right in the middle of the national league. He is not good but that spot is a concern outside of the Mets and Rockies. Since the brewers have gotten good, fans have come to think we should have no weak spots and the need for change should be immediate. RR has done fine with what we have and there are some changes coming in the next week. We shall see what new pieces he gets to play with.

[TooLiveBrew]

So you move Weeks to 3 and then you would complain about the 5.

 

Not true at all, the whole point is making sure the worst hitters are furthest down in the order. Not that it'll convince you, since all we are is internet nerds that complain about everything.

[topper09er]

So you move Weeks to 3 and then you would complain about the 5.

 

Not true at all, the whole point is making sure the worst hitters are furthest down in the order. Not that it'll convince you, since all we are is internet nerds that complain about everything.

I would say actually the most important point is to group all your best hitter together, followed by having that group at the top of the order. I would rather see Hart-Weeks-Braun-Feilder hitting 6-7-8-9 if they were all together than seeing Fielder-1, Braun-3, Hart-5, Weeks-7 or whatever. Slipping the out machine Kotsay between all of our best hitters really hurts and kills rallies, just like having Gomez hitting #2 right in the midst of Weeks, Braun and Fielder did.

 

Right now I would like to see Morgan, Hart, Fielder, Weeks, Lucroy in the top 5 spots followed by any combination of the remaining blackhole at the bottom of the order.

[MJLiverock]

The complaints about the use Kotsay seem over the top to me. When guys get hurt he is going to play. He did fine filling in for Braun before the All Star Break. He played a lot early when injuries to Hart, Morgan, and even Gomez opened holes in the OF. The whopping 44 innings he played of CF while Morgan was hurt was billed as the end of the world.

 

The only guys that automatically should be in the top 5 of the line up are Weeks, Braun, Fielder, Hart, and Morgan when he plays. If one of those guys are hurt and Kotsay plays he isn't the worst choice to have in the top 5. I know some think Lucroy is the 2nd coming of Johnny Bench but he doesn't get on base any better than Kotsay and since Kotsay is LH he should get slotted accordingly (I'll agree it is stupid to put him right before or after Prince). The rest of the potential line up fillers like Betancourt, Gomez, Counsell, Wilson, McGehee aren't noticably better than Kotsay either so I don't get all the hand wringing, seems like compalining just for the sake of complaining.

[endaround]

No one is saying Lucroy is Bench, just that he is a much better hitter than Kotsay. And he would mean not having 3 left handers in a row forcing Morgan to face a LOOGY. Kotsay's wOBA is .289 while Lucroy's is .317. Or because the numbers are real nice Kotsay's wRC+ is 81 and Lucroy's is an even 100. Basically Kotsay is 4/5th the hitter Lucroy is. And all this ignores that Gomez should start over Kotsay anyway.

[Thurston Fluff]

Not true at all, the whole point is making sure the worst hitters are furthest down in the order. Not that it'll convince you, since all we are is internet nerds that complain about everything.

 

Where did he call you a nerd or say you complain about everything? You are quite good at stats and understand them very well. As someone who does understand stats I would assume you know there is a minimal at best connection between batting order and runs scored. Which leads me to ask why are you so concerned about it? It's pretty much irrelevant. If it was as simple as putting the best hitters the highest in the order why did LaRussa's putting the pitcher in the 8 hole not produce worse results? IIRC it actually worked slightly better. That cannot happen if the way to score more runs is simply to have the hitters lined up strictly according to ability.

 

Thats all well and good but there is still no logical explanation as to why Kotsay should ever bat 3rd or why Casey had an extra month batting 5th or why Betancourt plays as much as he does.

 

The entire point was that batting Casey there as long as he did for example was BECAUSE he was giving him the time to play the way he did the previous two years there. That allows the other players to relax and trust the manager is looking out for their careers. That matters more than anything to these guys. It's literally million dollar decisions that effect everyone. They understand performance is key but they also understand the fickleness of the sport. Allowing players to get enough time to tun things around can be more useful to the overall concept of putting players in the best possible position to succeed as moving people around for a half a season of bad play. AT this point I think it's clear Yuni is getting reduced playing time. Hell Ron as much as said it's now an open competition at this point. Kotsay would be playing less if Braun was healthy. Casey might get more time because of his two solid years prior and the fact there are fewer options but we have even seen signs of his leash getting short. That to me seems fair. More importantly I would guess most of the players on the team agree. They have all been given a fair shot and we are seeing changes accordingly.

[Raw Biz]

Not true at all, the whole point is making sure the worst hitters are furthest down in the order. Not that it'll convince you, since all we are is internet nerds that complain about everything.

 

Where did he call you a nerd or say you complain about everything?

He didn't call him a nerd here but in a lot of posts, he passive aggressively talks down to this board and is very condescending. Example:

When Loe does it, he is getting hit around. Funny how that works depending on the pitcher. And you notice K Rod pitched the next inning. You do need to have a pitcher for all of the innings. Believe it or not, RR has an idea on who is going to pitch and sometimes it doesn't work out. And when it doesn't, Mr Internet guy had the right move that would have worked out perfectly. In this world, no runs are ever given up. And Saito pitched the night before and is not going to be overused coming off the injury. But you probably knew that

 

Debate is fine but comments like this really start to get annoying and IMO, lessen one's credibility. We're all fans of the Brewers and should be able to have a meaningful discussion without comments like this. If that's how people want to talk, then they should go post over at jsonline.

[MJLiverock]

No one is saying Lucroy is Bench, just that he is a much better hitter than Kotsay. And he would mean not having 3 left handers in a row forcing Morgan to face a LOOGY. Kotsay's wOBA is .289 while Lucroy's is .317. Or because the numbers are real nice Kotsay's wRC+ is 81 and Lucroy's is an even 100. Basically Kotsay is 4/5th the hitter Lucroy is. And all this ignores that Gomez should start over Kotsay anyway.

Lucroy's career RC+ is 84(which is right around the last 3 years for Kotsay too), it is only about a season's worth of numbers but outside of his hot start this year his numbers are below average, he isn't nearly as good as some make him out to be. He is an average to below average hitter but there were threads about geting him in the All Star game, and constant complaints about getting him up in the order despite his mediocre production because he his the first Brewer catcher in years who isn't on his last legs or just downright awful. Look at all the complaints about him not catching Wolf, as if he should be catching 162 a year. His OBP this year is .317, Kotsay is .312 not much difference there.

 

Gomez should start over Kotsay but that wasn't part of anything I said. I mentioned Kotsay playing when Gomez was hurt or for Hart or Morgan when hurt. But of course if Gomez plays CF and Morgan were in LF or RF against a RH pitcher people would complain that Gomez was playing. Just like the people couldn't be happy he did well when filling in for Braun, it was all about ignoring results.

 

Kotsay is sort of the other side of the coin of Counsell. No matter how terrible Counsell is there is a segement that defends him yet Kotsay can do no right and shouldn't be on the team.

[logan82]

there were threads about geting him in the All Star game.

 

One thread that I recall and at the time he was hitting better or almost as well as any catcher in the NL.

 

 

But of course if Gomez plays CF and Morgan were in LF or RF against a RH pitcher people would complain that Gomez was playing.

 

Different people might. It isn't like the same people complain no matter what DPR does. You are going to get a lot of different opinions on any message board.

 

 

No matter how terrible Counsell is there is a segement that defends him yet Kotsay can do no right and shouldn't be on the team.

 

I am not seeing a lot of defense of Counsell on here. Most of it is "I guess he might suck a bit less than Yuni and Wilson" or "he is the only left handed hitter amongst the pile of suck we have at SS."

[Bnowell4evr]

I can't stand the guy to be honest.

[jerichoholicninja]

Anyone else catch Treni tearing into Ron on 620 this afternoon? She basically echoed everything that has been said here on BF.net but it was great to hear someone in the media say it.

[gregmag]

The managers job should be putting the players in the best position to succeed as a team.

 

Obviously he feels those moves are the best moves for the team to succeed over the long haul. Since the long haul hasn't been completed it seems a bit premature to think they have failed. You seem to be assessing the move in a vacuum. Yet the game isn't played in a vacuum. It is played in context of a long season with players being told by coaches what is expected of them. Usually that also includes a rough idea of how long they have to achieve those goals. If you assume all those things you mentioned are not putting the team in the best position to win then you need to know what the ramifications of doing something different are. Did he tell his players they are going to be given a long leash or short one? Did he tell them this is their role or did he say it's an open competition for that role? Those things matter when deciding if he is putting the team in the best position to win as possible. Maybe you feel Machaing it and ticking off or unduly adding pressure to the players is ok and it doesn't effect how the team plays over a long period of time but I think it does matter. In other words putting the players in the best possible position to win isn't as simple as not letting Loe pitch against lefties ever because how Loe is treated effects how the next guy in line performs in his place. That may not be putting that guy in the best position to win as well.

Much of this is true, and very well said. But -- if RR has created a set of expectations that allow his players to crumble if, say, he benches McGehee at this point, or uses Loe in a more limited way, or ritually sacrifices Betancourt (I kid because I care), then that's a failing on RR's part. In other words, yes, you have to look at the big picture in evaluating RR, but RR also has to look at the big picture when he establishes his relationships with his players. No manager can succeed under conditions where, for whatever reason, he gives players leashes as long as some of these guys are getting. Trying alternatives when guys have failed over a half season isn't "Machaing it."

 

[Thurston Fluff]

Trying alternatives when guys have failed over a half season isn't "Machaing it."

 

This is about the time of year you start to see changes made not earlier. Lately he is using other options more. To the best of his what he has to work with anyway. We all knew going into this season that it was not a deep team. That kind of means you are stuck with trotting some guys out there more and longer than may be ideal but what is the alternative? This next month or so is going to be telling if he waits too long like Yost sometimes did, not give a guy enough time like Macha tended to do or maybe he sort of gets it right and we have a strong finish and everyone is happy.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Anyone else catch Treni tearing into Ron on 620 this afternoon? She basically echoed everything that has been said here on BF.net but it was great to hear someone in the media say it.

No, is this archived? I'd love to hear it.

[yoshii8]

Why did RR pull Narveson tonight? He was lights out in the 7th and was only at 87 pitches.