Impressions of Roenicke so far (part 2)

[PKBadger]

I'm done with RR. Letting Loe pitch to Helton was indefensible.

 

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Continued from:

 

viewtopic.php?p=703250#p703250

 

Original Lead:

 

viewtopic.php?t=24967

[RockCoCougars]

Roenicke is just like Yost in that his handling of the bullpen is his Achilles heel.

[brwrsfan]

Continues to let Loe pitch against power lefties with the game on the line and continues to get burned. I don't care if we won the game, letting Loe pitch to Helton with the game on the line was inexcusable. Loe has proven multiple times that he just simply is not very good against left handed hitters. Everyone gets this expect our manager. Continues to make it as difficult as possible for us to win games.

[TooLiveBrew]

Not to mention that K-Rod's best out pitch is a filthy changeup, which moves down & away from LHB.

 

My impression of Roenicke so far? Ned Yost with a better personality.

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

Not to mention that K-Rod's best out pitch is a filthy changeup, which moves down & away from LHB.

 

My impression of Roenicke so far? Ned Yost with a better personality.

You've done it TLB, I now have a new sig...

[fondybrewfan]

I don't know; if he can't use Loe in any high leverage situations and not at all against lefties; why is he even on the team? RR has made it pretty clear he doesn't like using his big guns more than an inning at a time and I guess I am not as opposed to that strategy as most are. Now would be the time to have Saito step up and claim the 7th inning all for himself. Also I am pretty confident that if he had a good lefty to use; he would have used him there. Its Melvin's job to find one

[logan82]

Also I am pretty confident that if he had a good lefty to use; he would have used him there.

 

Why? He has shown a pattern of using Loe against lefty after lefty all season. Nothing DPR has done suggests he has any clue Loe is a ROOGY.

[COBrewerfan]

With the entire bullpen being right handed I am not sure why people get upset that Loe was used. We had used almost everybody and Axford was being saved for when we were leading. Hawkins got hit around as well. Who did you want? Is RRR supposed to create another bullpen arm?

[H4P]

I thought with the addition of Krod that we would never have to see Loe in a high leverage situation again. But RR finds a way to throw him in there with the first lead late after the break. With a predictable result.

 

My only theory is that when RR calls the bullpen, he says "Hello". Not used to such pleasantries, the bullpen coach simply hangs up only having heard the "Loe" part. Embarrassed, noone does anything to correct it.

[endaround]

Yeah all that was left was Axford! And well Rodriquez. And Saito. Also amazing how Hawkins giving up 2 singles is being "hit around" when with a faster throw from Wilson he gets a DP and likely stays in the game.

[owbc]

With the entire bullpen being right handed I am not sure why people get upset that Loe was used. We had used almost everybody and Axford was being saved for when we were leading. Hawkins got hit around as well. Who did you want? Is RRR supposed to create another bullpen arm?

In Loe's career (almost 2000 PA), lefties have an .850 OPS off him, as opposed to .680 for righties. His K/BB ratio is 2.49 for righties, 1.08 for lefties.

 

In K-Rod's case, lefties are better than righties, a .644 OPS compared to .550. But K-Rod is a far better pitcher and could have easily gotten the last out in the 7th and stayed in for the 8th. Saito was warming up so I'm guessing he was available also.

 

Only Dillard would have been a worse option, as lefties hit with over a 1.000 OPS against him. Dillard and Loe should never see lefties and it is up to DM and RR to understand that the bullpen will continue to throw away games if they are put in bad situations.

 

Oh, and this is Todd Helton we are taking about, so it was even more important that a quality pitcher goes in against him. Bringing in Loe to face Ellis was a good move. Loe should then have been pulled and replaced with Saito or K-Rod.

[COBrewerfan]

Yeah all that was left was Axford! And well Rodriquez. And Saito. Also amazing how Hawkins giving up 2 singles is being "hit around" when with a faster throw from Wilson he gets a DP and likely stays in the game.

 

When Loe does it, he is getting hit around. Funny how that works depending on the pitcher. And you notice K Rod pitched the next inning. You do need to have a pitcher for all of the innings. Believe it or not, RR has an idea on who is going to pitch and sometimes it doesn't work out. And when it doesn't, Mr Internet guy had the right move that would have worked out perfectly. In this world, no runs are ever given up. And Saito pitched the night before and is not going to be overused coming off the injury. But you probably knew that.

[RockCoCougars]

Loe has been absolutely brutal. His stats don't look as bad as he's pitched because he started off well. He is leading all of baseball in blown saves, which is fairly ridiculous for a non-closer. That shows me that he's being used way too much in situations in which he shouldn't be. Frankly, I'm tired of watching a 'ground ball pitcher' flipping belt high meatballs up there.

[1992casey]

"Mr. Internet guy" is insulting to the people who've posted thoughtfully in this topic. Please refrain from such attacks in the future.

 

I'm sure Roenicke has an idea who's going to pitch. However, people question those ideas and wonder if he understands the strengths and weaknesses of his players.

[TooLiveBrew]

And you notice K Rod pitched the next inning. You do need to have a pitcher for all of the innings

 

And K-Rod is a much better option, statistically & stuff-wise, to get out a LHB. He would have been the best choice to face the succession of Gonzalez, Ellis, & Helton. And if the Rockies still hit K-Rod around, at least you can say the manager put his team in the best position he could to win.

[mothershipconnection]

Roenicke reminds me of a crappy politician. Make decisions based on goofy "I heard once that" types of data rather than the mountains of more meaningful numbers you have access to. Then stick stubbornly by your poor decisions, believing what you want to be true rather than looking at the data which continue to tell you that you're stupid.

[fondybrewfan]

I guess my point is that more often than not in order to get through a full inning most relief pitchers will probably have to face a lefty. If we have a RHP who I don't consider to be good enough to be a ROOGY and can't get lefties out at all; why is he even on the team.

 

That being said I probably would have left Hawkins out there last night. For whatever reason Hawkins has had a much shorter leash with RR than Loe has.

[logan82]

I don't think most people disagree with you that having 2 ROOGYs(Loe and Dillard) on the team and no LOOGYs is bad. We just wish DPR would see them for what they are and use them appropriately. Hawkins having a short leash and Loe no leash is troublesome as well.

[PKBadger]

With the entire bullpen being right handed I am not sure why people get upset that Loe was used. We had used almost everybody and Axford was being saved for when we were leading. Hawkins got hit around as well. Who did you want? Is RRR supposed to create another bullpen arm?

We had used almost everybody? At that point in the game the Brewers had used two pitchers - Greinke and Hawkins.

[endaround]

I guess my point is that more often than not in order to get through a full inning most relief pitchers will probably have to face a lefty. If we have a RHP who I don't consider to be good enough to be a ROOGY and can't get lefties out at all; why is he even on the team.

 

That being said I probably would have left Hawkins out there last night. For whatever reason Hawkins has had a much shorter leash with RR than Loe has.

Much of the time it isn't that big of a deal. Facing Craig Counsell? Go for it Loe! Facing Votto? Bad idea! Yes you'd rather have a guy without such %%$%@$ but that's why you don't have him face LHers in high leverage situations. Roeincke was managing with what he wished would happen (Loe gets a DP groundball and ends the innings) instead of what may (and is more likely) to happen.

[xisxisxis]

I feel bad for Hawkins. He has a major league track record of being a very good RP. He's been far from lights out this year, but he has been decent and should be in the mix when the brewers are leading or ahead. His manager is obviously mentally overmatched and continues to yank him around, while bending over backwards for a one year RP who clearly isn't that good (or does Loe bend over for RR) . He's talked about getting more innings, like he had to lead a blind child into the light, but he still get's yanked after a couple of hits to put in the dork, who has already lost 7 games and yet he's still being put into high leverage situations to screw up. So far I've been rooting for the Brewers and hope they can make the playoffs. Unfortunately, there are way more players and coaches on this team that if the team was out of contention I would be rooting for them to fail. Of the teams over the last few years where the brewers had a chance to be competitive this is the team that I like the least....

[logan82]

Of the teams over the last few years where the brewers had a chance to be competitive this is the team that I like the least....

 

That really is true for me also. I am not enjoying this season as much as I should. Yost may or may not have been as good as DPR but he wasn't given the talent DPR has this year and he at least went through some bad times with us.

[DuWayne Steurer]

So far I've been rooting for the Brewers and hope they can make the playoffs. Unfortunately, there are way more players and coaches on this team that if the team was out of contention I would be rooting for them to fail. Of the teams over the last few years where the brewers had a chance to be competitive this is the team that I like the least....

It's weird........I know how you feel here. I can't remember anytime in my past where I've rooted against a Brewers player......not ever. But oddly, this year there's 2-3 guys who, when they do something RIGHT, I just sigh, and realize that all that's done is make it less likely that they'll be replaced, or longer til they'll be replaced. It almost feels kind of dirty.

[Thurston Fluff]

People seem to have made up their minds four weeks into the season and haven't budged since then. But when I see comments like "this is my least favorite competitive team," I have to ask what's the difference as long as they are competitive? They have a couple real bad players on it. To succeed with a couple real bad holes seems to me to be more a sign of competence somewhere within the coaching/managing of this team than a failing.

 

Overall half way through it appears to me we are playing to the level projected for us at the beginning of the season. If we are playing where we should be playing and the manager is making all these terrible decisions then it either means this team is way more talented than most people thought or those in game moves just aren't all that important to winning. I think it the latter. The manager manages people to play well throughout the season. Some moves only make sense when looking at the season as a whole. Some may never make sense. I really don't care what moves a manager makes on any given day as long as the team as a whole is playing to expectations. First place and winning at the pace expected of them is playing to my expectations.

Since they are playing to me expectations my impression of Ron so far is good. I still reserve the right to change my mind since the season isn't over and some of his moves have yet to prove they will be good for the entire season. At this point though first place in one of only two divisions in baseball to have more than two teams above 500 seem to be satisfactory accomplishments for any manager let alone a first year manager. If hating some players or the manager make following them more fun then by all means do so. For myself second guessing unimportant moves takes away from my overall enjoyment so I just don't do it. So does defending every move he makes so now I stay away for the most part. I'll just sit back and enjoy good baseball and an all to rare pennant race.

 

Yost may or may not have been as good as DPR but he wasn't given the talent DPR has this year and he at least went through some bad times with us.

 

If it were up to me we'd still have Yost as a manager but this team is as flawed as Yost's were.

[Funketown]

People seem to have made up their minds four weeks into the season and haven't budged since then. But when I see comments like "this is my least favorite competitive team," I have to ask what's the difference as long as they are competitive? They have a couple real bad players on it. To succeed with a couple real bad holes seems to me to be more a sign of competence somewhere within the coaching/managing of this team than a failing.

I've actually thought about this as well recently and here's part of my theory of why I find it so frustrating:

 

We all know this team's window is only 1-2 years, and we all see the depleted farm system. This is the last hurrah for Fielder, and ultimately feels like the last chance for what was an incredibly talented farm system. We waited so many years for this team to be competitive and now the club might only make the playoffs once with that class of players. Most seasons there is a silver lining. In 2008, it was that Sheets and CC were leaving but Yovani was coming back and Prince would improve after a poor season, not to mention the glorious draft picks we thought we'd receive for Sheets and CC. I personally don't believe this is a single season window so long as Melvin can fill holes at SS, 3B, and 1B with the cash saved on Prince.

 

Ultimately, I think we realize that there are most likely some dark days in the future for the Brewers. I just think that as fans, we really want something to show for this team.