Impressions of Roenicke so far (part 3)

[Raw Biz]

As much as it sucks, you have to tip your hat to the cardinals - that bullpen is on an incredible run.

 

I don't really think it matters who is managing the Brewers during this series. They were simply outplayed and trying to pin the series loss for starting Kotsay in CF - while ignoring the other gaffes in that game or the error-fest that came in the following games - is a joke.

 

2 wins from a world series is heart breaking right now - but damn impressive for a 1st year manager.

Again, it really had nothing to do with him. It had to do with the talent he had and specifically, how great the pitching was in the 2nd half. And I don't think most people are blaming the entire series loss on starting Kotsay. But it was a major factor in the game 3 loss, which ultimately, I think was the turning point in the series.

I also wholeheartedly agree with TheCrew's take on the big picture re: Roenicke. . . . And I'll readily contend that Macha had almost all the same talent, just short a couple stud starters, but his distant style & lack of good people skills did a goodly amount to undermine many of the other positive aspects & potential of the Brewers' 2010 season.

Umm, I would think the difference between a couple of stud starters and the crap they had the last two years is pretty big. And I still believe those guys were unhappy because they were losing and not losing because they were unhappy. Teams have won in the past playing for hard-ass managers that might have been hard to get along with.

[TheCrew]

Again, it really had nothing to do with him. It had to do with the talent he had and specifically, how great the pitching was in the 2nd half. And I don't think most people are blaming the entire series loss on starting Kotsay. But it was a major factor in the game 3 loss, which ultimately, I think was the turning point in the series.

The Kotsay/Game 3 was addressed by a previous poster and matched my sentiments. Brewers took back control in game 4 and then played like a little league team defensively in games 5 and 6 - that isn't on RR.

 

People also need to stop ignoring Braun's lack of backing up Kotsay. If your going to call out RR, you damn sure better call out Braun for something that is fundamental baseball taught from little league on up. Even the greatest defenders make errors.

 

Marcum/Greinke weren't the only difference this year. RR's managing style and player relations (allowing the players to be who they are) also made a HUGE difference - the guy was far from perfect, but no manager is and he was a huge breath of fresh air compared to what has been here recently.

[Baldkin]

And I'll readily contend that Macha had almost all the same talent, just short a couple stud starters, but his distant style & lack of good people skills did a goodly amount to undermine many of the other positive aspects & potential of the Brewers' 2010 season.

They won 77 games with the 2nd highest ERA in the league, and 88 ERA+. They had 27 starts from the poo poo platter of Jeff Suppan, Manna Parra and Doug Davis. Not to mention 31 starts from Dave Bush.

[RockCoCougars]

Some people still have a lot of love for Macha, but they conveniently forget that he also stuck with crappy veterans way too long, (see Hoffman, Trevor; Suppan, Jeff; Kendall, Jason). He certainly wasn't the baseball guru that some would have you believe. I couldn't stand him because of his detached and arrogant manner. From what I've seen, most of the players agreed. I'd be willing to wager that he will never get a MLB manager job again.

[Teatoe993]

Remember Kendall leading off? Good times. Or was that just a dream?

[RightFieldCoder]

I don't know if they have love with Macha, they are just pointing out that the difference in records between 2010 and 2011 reflect more on the players than the managers.

[TGJforPrez]

Remember Kendall leading off? Good times. Or was that just a dream?

Don't forget leading off Corey Patterson a couple of games... But hey, at least he is fast.

[Raw Biz]

Again, it really had nothing to do with him. It had to do with the talent he had and specifically, how great the pitching was in the 2nd half. And I don't think most people are blaming the entire series loss on starting Kotsay. But it was a major factor in the game 3 loss, which ultimately, I think was the turning point in the series.

The Kotsay/Game 3 was addressed by a previous poster and matched my sentiments. Brewers took back control in game 4 and then played like a little league team defensively in games 5 and 6 - that isn't on RR.

 

People also need to stop ignoring Braun's lack of backing up Kotsay. If your going to call out RR, you damn sure better call out Braun for something that is fundamental baseball taught from little league on up. Even the greatest defenders make errors.

 

Marcum/Greinke weren't the only difference this year. RR's managing style and player relations (allowing the players to be who they are) also made a HUGE difference - the guy was far from perfect, but no manager is and he was a huge breath of fresh air compared to what has been here recently.

You keep bringing up this Braun thing. Sure Braun could have done a better job of backing up the play but like I already said, he probably thought it was an easy play for any CF and didn't think he really needed to. As much as you might think guys practice perfect fundamentals on every play, they don't. This was a pretty routine catch for a normal CF.

Kotsay should not have been in CF, period. You and Roenicke are the only ones who believe otherwise.

[RockCoCougars]

I don't know if they have love with Macha, they are just pointing out that the difference in records between 2010 and 2011 reflect more on the players than the managers.

 

So Greinke, Marcum, Saito, Morgan and half a year of K-Rod meant 19 games? Even after giving up the stud Escobar for the boat anchor Yuni?

[rwa12]

The Kotsay play wasn't routine, it was a catch that Gomez and probably Morgan makes. At the least it's on the run, with a slide possible. Kotsay botched the ball, and should never have been in CF, however Braun absolutely should have backed up that ball. He's a great hitter, not much of a left fielder, I think that's established. He knew Kotsay was in the game, he could see the play unfolding, there was a better chance than not that MK doesn't make that play. Braun has to be ready, call it fundamentals, call it common sense, whatever you want. Kotsay should have caught the ball, Braun could have bailed him out, neither did the job in that situation.

I agree with others, game 5 was the turning point in the series for me. They were awful, hard to bounce back from that with any confidence.

[Baldkin]

I don't know if they have love with Macha, they are just pointing out that the difference in records between 2010 and 2011 reflect more on the players than the managers.

 

So Greinke, Marcum, Saito, Morgan and half a year of K-Rod meant 19 games? Even after giving up the stud Escobar for the boat anchor Yuni?

Pretty darn close to it, not to mention a full season of Axford, vs 2 months of horrible Hoffman.

Baseball Reference pitching WAR totals, based on ERA not FIP like fangraphs: 2010: 1.6, 2011: 17.8.

[RockCoCougars]

But Macha had Axford at his disposal in 2010. How long did it take him to finally go to Axford after it was clear that Hoffman was almost single-handedly peeing the season down his leg. If I recall correctly, it was somewhere in the range of a month. Yes, it is tough to blame him for demoting one of the all time great relievers, but this is the sort of thing that would have caused people here to bring the pitchforks out on Roenicke (and no, I wouldn't doubt that he'd have done the same thing).

 

You also have to remember that both Greinke and especially Saito missed decent chunks of time. Another thing, Weeks goes down in 2009... smoldering ruins. Weeks goes down in 2011... hot streak. I also blame Macha for the gaping hole at shortstop, because I believe that he threw Hardy and Hall under the bus when they were going down in flames in 2009. That whole debacle was a travesty. Time will tell if Gamel has been ruined by Macha as well.

[Thurston Fluff]

Sure Braun could have done a better job of backing up the play but like I already said, he probably thought it was an easy play for any CF and didn't think he really needed to.

 

He probably thought? What's wrong with admitting that he screwed up and should have been backing up that play like he was supposed to?

[SconnieKid]

Sure Braun could have done a better job of backing up the play but like I already said, he probably thought it was an easy play for any CF and didn't think he really needed to.

 

He probably thought? What's wrong with admitting that he screwed up and should have been backing up that play like he was supposed to?

 

This has been your complaint for a week and I think you are just dead wrong on it. Kotsay dove head first and his body landed on the ball and redirected it. Braun would have been fine if pokey Kotsay wouldn't have gotten there; instead pokey Kotsay got there late enough to redirect the ball past Braun too.

[Thurston Fluff]

This has been your complaint for a week and I think you are just dead wrong on it.

 

Actually I think it was the first time I mentioned it. RWA12 mentioned it as did TheCrew probably a couple others. It's easy to lose who said what so no big deal especially since I think they are more right about that play than you. We'll have to agree to disagree.

[TheCrew]

This has been your complaint for a week and I think you are just dead wrong on it. Kotsay dove head first and his body landed on the ball and redirected it. Braun would have been fine if pokey Kotsay wouldn't have gotten there; instead pokey Kotsay got there late enough to redirect the ball past Braun too.

Unfortunately the video evidence doesn't support your statement at all: http://mlb.mlb.com/video/....jsp?content_id=19888335

 

Kotsay doesn't even touch the ball.

 

I'm also tired of hearing how this was a routine fly ball. Gomez gets that ball because the guy is as quick as they come. I've said it several times and I'll say it again, it's no sure thing for Morgan either and there are a number of CF's who don't get that ball - anyone saying that is a guaranteed out for Morgan, with the way he'd been playing D out in CF, isn't looking at this objectively.

 

Kotsay, Hart and Braun all deserve blame for that inning. Yo didn't help himself either. Let's just stick to the facts. The Cardinals played better baseball then the Brewers the past week - no, it's not easy to say that....... but it's reality........... that said, Go Rangers!!!

[SconnieKid]

I have read it several times. Sorry if I blamed you for someone else's lousy argument. I'm sure you understand how I could think this way.

 

My first inclination was to blame Braun for it too but it clearly hit Kotsay's chest/stomach and went a completely direction.

[endaround]

But Macha had Axford at his disposal in 2010. How long did it take him to finally go to Axford after it was clear that Hoffman was almost single-handedly peeing the season down his leg. If I recall correctly, it was somewhere in the range of a month. Yes, it is tough to blame him for demoting one of the all time great relievers, but this is the sort of thing that would have caused people here to bring the pitchforks out on Roenicke (and no, I wouldn't doubt that he'd have done the same thing).

 

You also have to remember that both Greinke and especially Saito missed decent chunks of time. Another thing, Weeks goes down in 2009... smoldering ruins. Weeks goes down in 2011... hot streak. I also blame Macha for the gaping hole at shortstop, because I believe that he threw Hardy and Hall under the bus when they were going down in flames in 2009. That whole debacle was a travesty. Time will tell if Gamel has been ruined by Macha as well.

Macha actually replaced those players. How long was Loe left in ht e8th inning to face LHers? McGehee and Betancourt were never replaced.

[TheCrew]

Macha actually replaced those players. How long was Loe left in ht e8th inning to face LHers? McGehee and Betancourt were never replaced.

To be fair McGehee was benched when it mattered.

 

Betancourt's play in the 2nd half didn't warrant benching either.

[endaround]

Betancourt hit for 6 weeks and then stopped. He ended up with a .646 OPS in August with a .256 OBP and .685 in September with a .278 OBP and his usual terrible defense.

[TheCrew]

Betancourt hit for 6 weeks and then stopped. He ended up with a .646 OPS in August with a .256 OBP and .685 in September with a .278 OBP and his usual terrible defense.

and when it mattered most, pretty solid defense (other than the games they all decided to boot it around) with a .826 OPS

 

Not trying to say Betancourt was an all-star - but he was far from the teams biggest problems the last few weeks.

[RockCoCougars]

Macha actually replaced those players.

 

How about Alcides, who was downright brutal in 2010- anyway you slice it?

[MNBrew]

And I'll readily contend that Macha had almost all the same talent, just short a couple stud starters, but his distant style & lack of good people skills did a goodly amount to undermine many of the other positive aspects & potential of the Brewers' 2010 season.

They won 77 games with the 2nd highest ERA in the league, and 88 ERA+. They had 27 starts from the poo poo platter of Jeff Suppan, Manna Parra and Doug Davis. Not to mention 31 starts from Dave Bush.

Right. Two stud starters replaced all the starts of Suppan/Parra/Davis/Bush. Gallardo, Wolf, & Narveson were all in the 2010 rotation. That was my point.

[Funketown]

Right. Two stud starters replaced all the starts of Suppan/Parra/Davis/Bush. Gallardo, Wolf, & Narveson were all in the 2010 rotation. That was my point.

Which is basically like saying "Yeah, they signed Albert Pujols, but they were the same team otherwise".

[logan82]

TheCrew wrote:

Not trying to say Betancourt was an all-star - but he was far from the teams biggest problems the last few weeks.

That is the kind of thinking that leads to signing a pitcher for 4 years/$42m.