Impressions of Roenicke so far (part 3)

[Hate those Rodents]

I'm sorry but TLR didn't have much better starting pitching than we did this series

Greinke was not the X factor we needed him to be. Even if Marcum implodes as is, if Greinke pitches closer to the ace he's supposed to be, we're not in this position talking now.

[trwi7]

Hate those Rodents wrote:

---

We should have had at least two "aces" for this series and we clearly

Our starting pitching in the series wasn't even #5 starter caliber as a whole.

[Invader3K]

Blaming Roenicke is very short sighted. Braun and Fielder essentially were nonfactors in this series are our starting pitching was terrible. Blaming the manager is just knee jerk.

[tigerbrew]

Starting Marcum in Game 6 over Yo was a very stupid mistake by Roenicke, and using Loe was another really stupid mistake. Roenicke was also wrong to say that Yo has not pitched on 3 days rest in his career, Yo had pitched on 3 days rest in Game 4 of the 2008 NLDS, and he pitched great in that game.

 

LaRussa has shown to be a much smarter and better manager, Roenicke has shown to be a clueless, stupid rookie manager who is not smart enough to manage in postseason.

[tristarscoop]

I hated the Loe move. Especially because there was no one warming in the pen behind him - even when he put the first 2 on. Everyone else had a short leash, but the guy with the 27.00 postseason ERA was the one that we left out there to do whatever? Not a fan

[tristarscoop]

I think I already did. Start Naverson without having him pitch in relief in game 5.

Narveson game up more runs than Marcum. You think his pitching one inning in game 5 is to blame?

 

Also - that's one option - you said there were plenty of them....

[logan82]

Blaming Roenicke is very short sighted. Braun and Fielder essentially were nonfactors in this series are our starting pitching was terrible. Blaming the manager is just knee jerk.

No it really isn't. Starting Kotsay in CF cost us having at least a game 7 with Yo starting.

[Invader3K]

No it really isn't. Starting Kotsay in CF cost us having at least a game 7 with Yo starting.

I agree starting him in center field was dumb, but I still don't buy that it cost us the series.

[greeg35]

I have been hard on rrr all year. He could have been a reason we missed the playoffs (but obviously wasn't), and I fear that without fielder on the team to help buffer us from his lack of logic we will struggle more than we should next year; but rrr is not the reason we are out of the playoffs right now. We played like absolute crap.

[SconnieKid]

I think I already did. Start Naverson without having him pitch in relief in game 5.

Narveson game up more runs than Marcum. You think his pitching one inning in game 5 is to blame?

 

Also - that's one option - you said there were plenty of them....

 

Yesterday was the 3rd game Narveson pitched in 5 days. For someone who was a starting pitcher a short while ago thats idiotic. It certainly isn't indicative of the stuff he was going to have had you prepared him for a 4-5 inning start after game 2. You will find a few of my posts cussing out RR for doing this when it happened. I thought given the difficulties the Cards had with Wolf another wily lefty in game 5 would have worked well; it also would have given Greinke and Yo back at home for 6 and 7. Instead, RR pitched Narv in some dumb spots and didn't have a backup plan for Marcum.

 

At the end of the day I don't think it was all on RR. They just played better than we did. But he made some terrible decisions that a lot of us attacked immediately that ended up being bad choices.

[fondybrewfan]

Overall RR was fine this year. Yes there were a handful of questionable calls but I thought he did great as a 1st time manager. He certainly wasn't the reason they fell apart in the NLCS. There is only so much he could have done. I would say he contributed to the meltdown but he certainly wasn't the primary problem.

 

I am not about to go out and give him an extension; I do want to see how he does next year with presumably a very different team (That hopefully is less top heavy and more balanced). Just my opinion but people focus way to much on managers in baseball. If you have good players you win; if you have bad players you don't. Everybody is lauding TLR but he was taking a huge risk going to the bullpen so early every game. What if that hadn't turned out; people in STL would want to ride him out of town. The fact is that the players he put in there executed like they were supposed to so they made TLR look good. Its pretty easy to look good as a manager when your entire lineup is mashing at the same time and your bullpen appears invincible. And it is pretty easy to look bad when the players don't execute like they had all year.

[Hate those Rodents]

One thing to remember is that our players liked playing for Ron a lot. Even if there is a shrewder manager out there that may have done some things the way many on here would have preferred, enjoying playing for your manager is worth wins in and of itself.

[jmeks23]

This board is a lot more understanding of RR (he is a rookie manager after all) then oh I don't know... BrewCrewBall.

 

However, I can't understand why people continue to think that Narveson was overused (like he can't go 3 innings in 4-5 days) and that if he had started EVERYTHING would've gone differently. It's BS really. Narveson knew all along that he would be the first guy in the game if Marcum faltered at all, and there you go, he faltered in the first inning. Can't have much shorter of a leash for Marcum than 1 inning. Then Narveson gave up 5 anyways, so everyone's point should be moot. But then they just keep trying to find a way to say that Narveson struggled because of X and Y and fail to admit that NEITHER option was good.

 

He was NOT going to use Yo for game 6, why bring Yo back on short rest and risk him being bad, then have no one for game 7? Or are you fine with Marcum in game 7, but not game 6? Why? Both are elimination games.

 

I don't know, really what killed us this series is defense (yes Kotsay does play into that) and pitching, particularly getting down in the first inning. I don't think Roenicke mismanaging is the reason we lost, I think that's kind of a cop out so people feel better about losing.

[FVBrewerFan]

Meh. I never believed liking your manager leads to any wins. I think it's important for players to RESPECT the manager, but I don't believe LIKING him matters. Players play for themselves and their teammates.

 

For that matter, how do we know whether the players lost respect for RR for some of his decisions? We wll probably never know. Just a complete guess on my part, but I gotta believe a guy like Braun is thinking...why in the world wouldn't we pitch Yo in an elimination game? Why did we have Mark Kotsay in CF?

 

Chances are, we would have lost this series anyhow. I know.

[1992casey]

I am not about to go out and give him an extension…

 

While I'd rather see a manager who's more adept at player evaluation and strategy, the fact is that he's going to remain. Given that, I'd definitely extend him for a year so he isn't a lame duck in 2012. That would entail picking up his 2013 option and possibly adding an option for 2014.

 

If worse comes to worse and he has to be canned, managerial contracts are edible.

[Thurston Fluff]

I'm sorry but TLR didn't have much better starting pitching than we did

this series and somehow he found a way to win, so please don't tell me

that RR didn't have any options.

 

You don't think their top ranked offense might have been an advantage for LaRussa? Ranked number one in OBP, runs, RBI, Slugging and hits might help make a manager a bit don't you think?

[billyjohnston77]

A short leash should have been when Marcum allowed 2 base runners. Not after a single which turned out to be a double to Berkman, then a 3 run dinger. Narveson should have been on a shorter leash as well just as everyone should have been. I don't understand how he could justify leaving the pitchers in to put us in a hole in an elimination game with a full bullpen.

 

All postseason, each game should have been treated like an elimination game. Arizona, up 2-0, then he lets Wolf and Marcum get shelled with a fresh bullpen. Then we had to waste Yo in a game 5 which we should have lost in the 9th. Larussa managed his pitchers how you need to in the Postseason, any sign of trouble, next pitcher. You can't worry about pitchers feelings or I have confidence in this guy.

 

Kotsay in CF in the NLCS, a chance to go to the World Series, please. If you have to start Kotsay, put him in right and Gomez in CF to help out on defense. He has absolutely no range and showed it and shouldn't have been out there.

 

Rookie Manager, not suited for the postseason. Sucks he and we have to learn from that.

[SconnieKid]

Blaming Roenicke is very short sighted. Braun and Fielder essentially were nonfactors in this series are our starting pitching was terrible. Blaming the manager is just knee jerk.

 

Combined OPS of ~.900 is pretty close to season avgs.

 

In fact, the entire offense had OPS' around or significantly better than their season avg. They were just bad in the important situations. For instance, Braun was GREAT with 2 outs and no one on but with RISP he was pretty bad.

[Invader3K]

A short leash should have been when Marcum allowed 2 base runners. Not after a single which turned out to be a double to Berkman, then a 3 run dinger. Narveson should have been on a shorter leash as well just as everyone should have been. I don't understand how he could justify leaving the pitchers in to put us in a hole in an elimination game with a full bullpen.

When does a starter ever get pulled after allowing just two base runners? This also ignores that you actually have to give someone in the bullpen time to warm up as well.

[brettac1]

Yeah, it's really not feasible unless he starts the game with a pitcher throwing in the bullpen.

[TheCrew]

As much as it sucks, you have to tip your hat to the cardinals - that bullpen is on an incredible run.

 

I don't really think it matters who is managing the Brewers during this series. They were simply outplayed and trying to pin the series loss for starting Kotsay in CF - while ignoring the other gaffes in that game or the error-fest that came in the following games - is a joke.

 

2 wins from a world series is heart breaking right now - but damn impressive for a 1st year manager.

[Raw Biz]

As much as it sucks, you have to tip your hat to the cardinals - that bullpen is on an incredible run.

 

I don't really think it matters who is managing the Brewers during this series. They were simply outplayed and trying to pin the series loss for starting Kotsay in CF - while ignoring the other gaffes in that game or the error-fest that came in the following games - is a joke.

 

2 wins from a world series is heart breaking right now - but damn impressive for a 1st year manager.

Again, it really had nothing to do with him. It had to do with the talent he had and specifically, how great the pitching was in the 2nd half. And I don't think most people are blaming the entire series loss on starting Kotsay. But it was a major factor in the game 3 loss, which ultimately, I think was the turning point in the series.

[billyjohnston77]

A short leash should have been when Marcum allowed 2 base runners. Not after a single which turned out to be a double to Berkman, then a 3 run dinger. Narveson should have been on a shorter leash as well just as everyone should have been. I don't understand how he could justify leaving the pitchers in to put us in a hole in an elimination game with a full bullpen.

"When does a starter ever get pulled after allowing just two base runners? This also ignores that you actually have to give someone in the bullpen time to warm up as well."

 

When the pitcher you select to start in an elimination game in the NLCS that allowed 34 runs in the last 34 innings pitched for the year with a dead arm is when you have some ready at all times no matter what inning or hitter it is. Its called managing a game before it gets out of hand. Very simple concept.

[MNBrew]

As much as it sucks, you have to tip your hat to the cardinals - that bullpen is on an incredible run.

 

I don't really think it matters who is managing the Brewers during this series. They were simply outplayed and trying to pin the series loss for starting Kotsay in CF - while ignoring the other gaffes in that game or the error-fest that came in the following games - is a joke.

 

2 wins from a world series is heart breaking right now - but damn impressive for a 1st year manager.

Again, it really had nothing to do with him. It had to do with the talent he had and specifically, how great the pitching was in the 2nd half. And I don't think most people are blaming the entire series loss on starting Kotsay. But it was a major factor in the game 3 loss, which ultimately, I think was the turning point in the series.

I agree that Game 3 might've had a different outcome without Kotsay in CF, but the outcome may well have been the same even if Kotsay had been in RF.

 

After how crisply played Game 4 was, I can't agree that Game 3 was the turning point in the series. After Game 4, the series was back to even & the Brewers were both feeling good and just 1 win in the next 2 games would've put the Brewers at home for Game 7 -- home field advantage just when you need it most. Instead, the absolute all-around breakdown that was Game 5 was the turning point. It wasn't just that they lost, but how amazingly & completely they did so in every facet of the game.

 

I also wholeheartedly agree with TheCrew's take on the big picture re: Roenicke. . . . And I'll readily contend that Macha had almost all the same talent, just short a couple stud starters, but his distant style & lack of good people skills did a goodly amount to undermine many of the other positive aspects & potential of the Brewers' 2010 season.

[homer]

I think a manager loses more games for a team than he wins. IN the Brewers case, RR lost them more games than he won. Not many, but a few. I will say that he got better as the year went along.