Impressions of Roenicke so far (part 3)

[DougJones43]

Lets try this once more...

It's no use. It's not getting through.

 

The argument just keeps getting reverted back to:

- There's no guarantee that the team would have won the game with a competent defensive CF

- Other guys could have played better so it doesn't matter

 

Both of these counterpoints are clearly continuing to miss the larger issue that in baseball, with the outcomes often decided by very narrow margins, it is vital to be as good as possible in every aspect. You can't make decisions that put your team at a disadvantage (even a little) with the margin for error being as small as it is during the playoffs.

[Raw Biz]

Lets try this once more. I/We are not complaining that Kotsay did not make the play or try his best. I/We are complaining about the DECISION to play Kotsay in CF in the first place. The managers job is to put the team in the best position to win, RRR did NOT do that last night.

 

As for Morgan: He has had 3 problems judging balls recently that I have seen, all of them on things hit directly at him.... I have never seen him have a problem judging a ball hit to either side of him.

Let's, go watch the video: http://mlb.mlb.com/video/....jsp?content_id=19888335

 

Look at where Furcal is when the ball gets by Braun. He deserves just as much criticism for the run scoring. Not to mention, this may have also held Jay at 1st......

You are just trolling now. Was there ever a doubt as to whether Braun should be playing left field last night?

Braun probably didn't bother putting in much effort backing up because he thought anybody playing CF should be able to catch that ball standing up (/half blue).

To blame Braun is just stupid. Yeah he probably could have done a better job backing up but he never should have been in that situation in the first place because the ball should have been caught.

[SconnieKid]

Lets try this once more...

It's no use. It's not getting through.

 

The argument just keeps getting reverted back to:

- There's no guarantee that the team would have won the game with a competent defensive CF

- Other guys could have played better so it doesn't matter

 

Both of these counterpoints are clearly continuing to miss the larger issue that in baseball, with the outcomes often decided by very narrow margins, it is vital to be as good as possible in every aspect. You can't make decisions that put your team at a disadvantage (even a little) with the margin for error being as small as it is during the playoffs.

 

This is exactly right. If Kotsay HAD made the catch in the first and hit the home run it still would have been the wrong decision. If you are playing Blackjack and you hit a hard 18 and get a 3 it doesn't mean you did the right thing.

[TooLiveBrew]

It just means you're clutch!

[endaround]

Of course if you get that 3, well it means you're on a roll and need to play the hot hand!

[SconnieKid]

I have a feeling some of you would hit the 21...

[TheCrew]

Let's, go watch the video: http://mlb.mlb.com/video/....jsp?content_id=19888335

 

Look at where Furcal is when the ball gets by Braun. He deserves just as much criticism for the run scoring. Not to mention, this may have also held Jay at 1st......

You are just trolling now. Was there ever a doubt as to whether Braun should be playing left field last night?

Why, because I don't agree with the sentiment that Kotsay cost the Brewers the game last night?

 

Sorry, I believe the Brewers collectively playing poorly cost them the game - not Kotsay in CF - anything we would have gained defensively with Plush or Go-Go would have been lost offensively with Plush or Go-Go.

[TheCrew]

Braun probably didn't bother putting in much effort backing up because he thought anybody playing CF should be able to catch that ball standing up (/half blue).

To blame Braun is just stupid. Yeah he probably could have done a better job backing up but he never should have been in that situation in the first place because the ball should have been caught.

Yeah, Braun should get a pass on playing fundamental baseball because other players - even good defensive players - never commit errors.

 

Knowing you have Kotsay in CF is EVEN MORE reason Braun should have been busting his tail to get over there - Only thing you did with your statement is provide more evidence of why Braun should have gotten in better position to back him up.

[homer]

Why, because I don't agree with the sentiment that Kotsay cost the Brewers the game last night?

 

Sorry, I believe the Brewers collectively playing poorly cost them the game - not Kotsay in CF - anything we would have gained defensively with Plush or Go-Go would have been lost offensively with Plush or Go-Go.

You don't know that because they didn't play. But it's safe to assume they would have done better in the field...not 100% certain but a really good assumption.

[Raw Biz]

Let's, go watch the video: http://mlb.mlb.com/video/....jsp?content_id=19888335

 

Look at where Furcal is when the ball gets by Braun. He deserves just as much criticism for the run scoring. Not to mention, this may have also held Jay at 1st......

You are just trolling now. Was there ever a doubt as to whether Braun should be playing left field last night?

Why, because I don't agree with the sentiment that Kotsay cost the Brewers the game last night?

 

Sorry, I believe the Brewers collectively playing poorly cost them the game - not Kotsay in CF - anything we would have gained defensively with Plush or Go-Go would have been lost offensively with Plush or Go-Go.

Nobody is saying that he was the sole reason. They are saying that it was stupid to start him in CF and his play reaffirmed that. Do you honestly believe it was a good idea to start him out there?

[TheCrew]

Nobody is saying that he was the sole reason. They are saying that it was stupid to start him in CF and his play reaffirmed that. Do you honestly believe it was a good idea to start him out there?

I thought it was a horrible decision - then he had a HR and 2 walks.

 

I don't buy into the fact that him not getting to that ball cost the Brewers the game - and that's what many are implying, some even directly saying, cost the Brewers the game.

 

The Brewers got outplayed last night - it's simple as that.

[Raw Biz]

Nobody is saying that he was the sole reason. They are saying that it was stupid to start him in CF and his play reaffirmed that. Do you honestly believe it was a good idea to start him out there?

I thought it was a horrible decision - then he had a HR and 2 walks.

 

I don't buy into the fact that him not getting to that ball cost the Brewers the game - and that's what many are implying, some even directly saying, cost the Brewers the game.

 

The Brewers got outplayed last night - it's simple as that.

You can't judge a decision like that based on the results. If Braun and Fielder went combined 0-8 with 2 errors, you wouldn't say it's a horrible decision to start them. Kotsay is a terrible defender and nothing special on offense so more often than not, he won't contribute much (and might even hurt the team). The point is, he shouldn't have started in CF. It seems that everyone except you and Roenicke believe it worked out.

[TheCrew]

You can't judge a decision like that based on the results. If Braun and Fielder went combined 0-8 with 2 errors, you wouldn't say it's a horrible decision to start them. Kotsay is a terrible defender and nothing special on offense so more often than not, he won't contribute much (and might even hurt the team). The point is, he shouldn't have started in CF. It seems that everyone except you and Roenicke believe it worked out.

Huh? Umm.......you want to judge the success of the move but what the probable results would have been - not what they actually were.

[nate82]

Actually it did work out offensively for Roenicke and the Brewers last night starting Kotsay. Kotsay was just playing the wrong position in the OF he should have been playing RF last night with Morgan in CF. Definitely wouldn't have played Gomez last night against Carpenter especially the way Carpenter was pitching last night. Gomez is way to aggressive when batting to have him in the lineup with someone like Carpenter on the mound.

[WisconsinSportsRule]

I can't believe he would be so blind to Kotsay's defense in a probable pitchers dual. Our lineup is full of those guys, I get it, but you have one of the best fielding CF's in the majors and he can't sniff a start? I know he's not going to give you anything offensively, but come on Ron, wake up.

[Raw Biz]

You can't judge a decision like that based on the results. If Braun and Fielder went combined 0-8 with 2 errors, you wouldn't say it's a horrible decision to start them. Kotsay is a terrible defender and nothing special on offense so more often than not, he won't contribute much (and might even hurt the team). The point is, he shouldn't have started in CF. It seems that everyone except you and Roenicke believe it worked out.

Huh? Umm.......you want to judge the success of the move but what the probable results would have been - not what they actually were.

You said it was a horrible decision but then said "then he had a HR and 2 walks." My point was it doesn't matter what he did. He could've made a diving catch in CF. More often than not, he will hurt you in CF so he shouldn't be starting when there are better alternatives.

[logan82]

Hart, Weeks, Fielder, Braun, Morgan/Gomez, Hairston, Lucroy and Betancourt/Green should probably start every game. I know the results will not balance out over the post season but you still have to put your best guys out there. Small sample still applies in the post season. You still don't play the hot hand.

[TheCrew]

You said it was a horrible decision but then said "then he had a HR and 2 walks." My point was it doesn't matter what he did. He could've made a diving catch in CF. More often than not, he will hurt you in CF so he shouldn't be starting when there are better alternatives.

No, I said I thought it was a horrible decision prior to the game - the results proved it wasn't a horrible decision and actually was a damn good one from an offensive perspective.

 

If your going to pass judgement on his decision, then you surely need to look at the results of the decision - not the prediction of the results.

[Team Canada]

Nobody is saying that he was the sole reason. They are saying that it was stupid to start him in CF and his play reaffirmed that. Do you honestly believe it was a good idea to start him out there?

I thought it was a horrible decision - then he had a HR and 2 walks.

How on earth do you keep coming back to this as a excuse?

Kotsay could have played RIGHT field and still given that offense. His day at the plate has absolutely No relevance. None. People are upset that he was in CENTER field.

 

 

Why is this so hard?

[rluzinski]

You said it was a horrible decision but then said "then he had a HR and 2 walks." My point was it doesn't matter what he did. He could've made a diving catch in CF. More often than not, he will hurt you in CF so he shouldn't be starting when there are better alternatives.

No, I said I thought it was a horrible decision prior to the game - the results proved it wasn't a horrible decision and actually was a damn good one from an offensive perspective.

 

If your going to pass judgement on his decision, then you surely need to look at the results of the decision - not the prediction of the results.

A person hands you a 6 shooter with 5 bullets and says they will give you $10 for playing Russian Roulette. You say "deal!", give the cylinder a spin and pull the trigger. Nothing happens and the man hands you $10.

You would say that the results proved that it was a good choice. I would say it was just about the worst decision a human being could make.

 

[TheCrew]

How on earth do you keep coming back to this as a excuse?

Kotsay could have played RIGHT field and still given that offense. His day at the plate has absolutely No relevance. None. People are upset that he was in CENTER field.

 

Why is this so hard?

#1 - No one proposed this until after Hart had an 0'fer.

 

#2 - Would it have made a difference? Plush would have been up in the platoon and as I've said multiple times, and other posters have as well, it's no given he gets that ball. The given is that if Braun backs Kotsay/Plush/Gomez up, the run likely doesn't score.

[TheCrew]

A person hands you a 6 shooter with 5 bullets and says they will give you $10 for playing Russian Roulette. You say "deal!", give the cylinder a spin and pull the trigger. Nothing happens and the man hands you $10.

You would say that the results proved that it was a good choice. I would say it was just about the worst decision a human being could make.

 

I care about results - could care less if a manager makes what is perceived as bone-headed decisions all season long if they produce successful results. That's what a managers job is - to put guys in situations where they will succeed.

 

Results > Predictions

 

Does anyone really think that with Plush in over Kotsay the Brewers win game 3?

[Ennder]

A person hands you a 6 shooter with 5 bullets and says they will give you $10 for playing Russian Roulette. You say "deal!", give the cylinder a spin and pull the trigger. Nothing happens and the man hands you $10.

You would say that the results proved that it was a good choice. I would say it was just about the worst decision a human being could make.

 

I care about results - could care less if a manager makes what is perceived as bone-headed decisions all season long if they produce successful results. That's what a managers job is - to put guys in situations where they will succeed.

 

Results > Predictions

 

Does anyone really think that with Plush in over Kotsay the Brewers win game 3?

Cool, you have a bad grasp on strategy, congrats.

[trwi7]

Roenicke's trolling us.

"I know you guys (reporters) hammered me for Kotsay yesterday," Roenicke said. "But you know, Kotsay is a good outfielder. I didn't put somebody out there who was a bad outfielder. I just didn't have Carlos Gomez in there. Carlos is a fabulous outfielder.

"I feel good with Kotsay in the outfield. And I like his offense. Really, what it came down to was Kotsay versus Nyjer, and it wasn't Gomey. He hasn't started against a right-hander in, I don't know, four months? So that was the options out there.

"Kotsay did what he was supposed to do yesterday. he got a home run and two walks in front of our big boys. That's what he was supposed to do. Okay, he got caught off second base. Kots, I know, wasn't happy about that play, but he did what he was supposed to do."

[burnzy24]

TheCrew wrote:

---

#1 - No one proposed this until after Hart had an 0'fer.
Does it matter? There was at least a page and a half of posts complaining about the move before the game even started.

#2 - Would it have made a difference? Plush would have been up in the platoon and as I've said multiple times, and other posters have as well, it's no given he gets that ball. The given is that if Braun backs Kotsay/Plush/Gomez up, the run likely doesn't score.

You keep talking about how Braun backing up Kotsay could have

prevented the run, yet you refuse to admit that if Gomez or Morgan are

in center they catch the ball Kostay dove for standing up and Gomez

probably catches the Pujols fly ball double as well. The pecking order

of depth in CF goes 1. Morgan, 2. Gomez 3. JHJ, 4. Hart 5. Kotsay. The

last two have no business in CP under normal circumstances. He plays

below average D in RF and had no business in center. Heck, I would

rather have Braun in CF than Kotsay.